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";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:85:"WPTavern: #159 – James Kemp on WooCommerce Innovations and Trends in Selling Online";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:48:"https://wptavern.com/?post_type=podcast&p=188026";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:99:"https://wptavern.com/podcast/159-james-kemp-on-woocommerce-innovations-and-trends-in-selling-online";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:47634:"Transcript<div>
<p>[00:00:00] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Welcome to the Jukebox Podcast from WP Tavern. My name is Nathan Wrigley.</p>



<p>Jukebox is a podcast which is dedicated to all things WordPress. The people, the events, the plugins, the blocks, the themes, and in this case WooCommerce innovations, and trends selling online.</p>



<p>If you&#8217;d like to subscribe to the podcast, you can do that by searching for WP Tavern in your podcast player of choice, or by going to wptavern.com/feed/podcast, and you can copy that URL into most podcast players.</p>



<p>If you have a topic that you&#8217;d like us to feature on the podcast, I&#8217;m keen to hear from you and hopefully get you, or your idea featured, on the show. Head to wptavern.com/contact/jukebox, and use the form there.</p>



<p>So on the podcast today we have James Kemp. James is the Core Product Lead for WooCommerce. After working with WooCommerce, running a plugin shop for 10 years, he joined the team at the end of 2023 to help shape the future of e-commerce.</p>



<p>James talks about his journey with WordPress and WooCommerce, and explains his role at Automattic, where he&#8217;s tasked with connecting the community&#8217;s feedback to the developments in WooCommerce, ensuring that the Woo platform continually evolves and improves.</p>



<p>He discusses the innovations within WooCommerce, the challenges of balancing the needs of small and large scale stores, and how the team navigates an environment filled with both competitors and opportunities.</p>



<p>He gets into the positive impact of WooCommerce&#8217;s recent rebranding, and how the system positions itself amidst the ever-growing competition from SaaS platforms like Shopify.</p>



<p>James shares his insights into the trends shaping e-commerce, like the seamless integration of newer technologies and consumer buying habits.</p>



<p>If you&#8217;re keen to understand the breadth of WooCommerce&#8217;s impact on e-commerce, or are curious about the direction of online shopping, this episode is for you.</p>



<p>If you&#8217;re interested in finding out more, you can find all of the links in the show notes by heading to wptavern.com/podcast, where you&#8217;ll find all the other episodes as well.</p>



<p>And so without further delay, I bring you James Kemp.</p>



<p>I am joined on the podcast by James Kemp. Hello James.</p>



<p>[00:02:50] <strong>James Kemp:</strong> Hello, how are you?</p>



<p>[00:02:51] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, good. Nice to speak to you. James is on the podcast today to talk all things WooCommerce. And he really is a very, very credible person to talk about WooCommerce, because James is the Core Product Lead for WooCommerce over at Automattic.</p>



<p>However, when I say that title, James, I don&#8217;t really know what it means. Will you just enlighten us? And also, if you feel like throwing some other biographical information at us about your history with WordPress and things like that, feel free.</p>



<p>[00:03:17] <strong>James Kemp:</strong> Of course. Yeah, I mean, we&#8217;ve spoken a couple of times on a podcast like this. I don&#8217;t know if we&#8217;ve done the Tavern one before.</p>



<p>But yeah, as a quick introduction, I started using WordPress in 2009, and I started building with WooCommerce in 2011. And from that time I worked with customers and specifically like building websites for customers who needed websites.</p>



<p>And in that time I built up a collection of plugins, which I sold on a premium basis, which eventually turned into IconicWP, which was a WooCommerce plugin shop with 14 or 15 premium plugins. Sold that, well, that was acquired in 2021 by Liquid Web, Stellar. And I stayed there for a couple of years, carried on working. My whole team came over with the acquisition. We carried on just working as we were really, but under this kind of bigger brand of products and WordPress software, which was quite nice. It was nice to kind of get that experience from companies selling products like we were, but they were at a much bigger scale than we were at the time. That was a nice experience.</p>



<p>And then, yeah, towards the end of that, I reached out to Paul, who was the CEO, at the time, of WooCommerce, and just kind of said, I feel like I could have a good impact on WooCommerce itself, is there anything there for me? And I was kind of open to whatever that might look like. There was no job description that I applied for. I just kind of reached out and said, this is what I want to do, this is what, I like doing, this is what I&#8217;m good at. And then, yeah, here we are just over a year since I joined.</p>



<p>I joined as a product manager. And like you say, now I&#8217;m a Core Product Manager, which is a new role within WooCommerce. So a Product Manager would be, and for context, there&#8217;s eight or nine Product Managers within WooCommerce. When I joined, we each kind of had an area of focus. So my area was order management. So any project or improvement or just, my day to day would be looking at order management and, how can we make this better? It kind of shifted outside of that a bit as well into other areas. But each Product Manager has that kind of role where they&#8217;re focused on one kind of key area of WooCommerce.</p>



<p>But there was never really any product manager that had an overall vision of the whole product. And that&#8217;s what the Core Product Manager role is. So I&#8217;m less focused on one specific area, and more focused on just, how can we make the whole thing better? And part of that role is kind of connecting the dots a bit. One team&#8217;s working on this, another team&#8217;s working on that, how do they overlap? But also connecting the community dots to the stuff that we actually put out there. So, what are people asking for? What are the common kind of requests that people have, or the complaints that people have? Or even the positives that people have and, how can we make those things better?</p>



<p>[00:06:12] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> So is there just one of you? So there&#8217;s one Core Product Lead. There&#8217;s not multiple of those.</p>



<p>[00:06:18] <strong>James Kemp:</strong> Correct.</p>



<p>[00:06:18] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Oh gosh, that&#8217;s really interesting. So you&#8217;ve got like the 10,000 mile high view of the entire project. And so you are kind of open to suggestions, innovations, improvements, tweaks, that all comes under the purview of your job.</p>



<p>[00:06:32] <strong>James Kemp:</strong> Correct, yeah. There&#8217;s different areas. There&#8217;s what we call product, which is kind of the user facing experience. And by user I mean merchant, and probably customer as well, so the visual aspects of the product that people interact with. And then there&#8217;s the platform side of things, which are backend architecture and performance and all those kinds of things.</p>



<p>So I&#8217;m primarily focused on the front end aspect, not front end but, you know, the core experience we call it. I am actually focused a lot on the platform side of things at the moment as well, because the person who usually does that is on sabbatical, so I&#8217;m kind of helping out a bit there. And it&#8217;s quite nice to have, you know, that understanding as well, for approaching core experience type things. And it also encompasses the WooCommerce app and many of our premium extensions, many of our marketplace extensions, premium or free.</p>



<p>[00:07:22] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> I&#8217;m guessing that if you ask anybody the question, is their inbox pretty full? You know, the to-do list that you have is pretty full, everybody would probably say, yeah, I&#8217;ve got plenty on my plate. But it sounds as if you may well have a lot on your plate.</p>



<p>Now, I don&#8217;t know if there&#8217;s a lot that you&#8217;ve got to deal with in there, and you&#8217;ve got a lot of ideas, and innovations that you&#8217;d like to push forward. But is it fair to say that there&#8217;s a ton of innovation still to be done inside of WooCommerce?</p>



<p>[00:07:46] <strong>James Kemp:</strong> Yeah, for sure. It&#8217;s something that I&#8217;m still trying to figure out. Like, how do you stay on top of all of these things and, where is my input within this most valuable? Because I&#8217;m still working alongside all the other product managers.</p>



<p>And actually that&#8217;s been really nice to kind of connect with a product manager that&#8217;s working on something specific, and work with them to make that the best it can be for WooCommerce.</p>



<p>But yeah, I&#8217;m still trying to figure out how to like organise all of these things so they&#8217;re not just in my head, but they&#8217;re out there in a manageable way.</p>



<p>[00:08:18] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> How do you get intelligence about what needs to be done? I mean, obviously there&#8217;s the team within Automattic that you deal directly with, I would&#8217;ve thought of, but do you keep your door of your office kind of half open a little bit? Are you prepared to listen to community suggestions?</p>



<p>And again, I&#8217;m not trying to get you to give out your email address or anything, but is there that element still? Do you still listen to people out in the community, users, and what have you? Do they come directly to you, or is there some kind of filtration process which people have to go through in order to get ideas in your head?</p>



<p>[00:08:46] <strong>James Kemp:</strong> There&#8217;s many ways. Yeah, I think one of the things that I love most is talking to the people that actually use it. And I do that primarily on X or Twitter. I talk to a lot of people over there.</p>



<p>The downside to that is the majority of them are agencies and developers. It&#8217;s not a downside, the downside being that I don&#8217;t get that kind of open communication necessarily with merchants directly. So if I want to talk to a merchant that&#8217;s more of a filtered, as you say, it&#8217;s an intentional, you know, I have to reach out to a merchant and schedule a call and all that kind of stuff. There is the occasional merchant on X, but it&#8217;s not their stomping ground.</p>



<p>So yeah, I&#8217;m also in the Slack, the WooCommerce community Slack. Some of what I&#8217;ve implemented is these kind of external channels within our own Slack. So one example of that is a project we&#8217;re working on for fulfillment statuses, where I got Becca from Kestrel WP and Patrick Garman from Minesize into one of our internal Slack rooms to discuss and kind of help shape this project. So they&#8217;re directly involved in that way in stuff that we&#8217;re working on.</p>



<p>And I think something that we really want to do is be really transparent with like, this is what we&#8217;re working on. You may well have seen over the course of the last year or so that that has been the case, via GitHub discussions, via the Developer Blog, via Slack, the community Slack. But yeah, I love getting feedback from people on Twitter. I still don&#8217;t know what to call it, Twitter or X.</p>



<p>[00:10:18] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> I often wonder if the sort of inside baseball of WordPress is a little bit hard to penetrate, because I&#8217;m imagining there&#8217;s a lot of people who use WordPress that in a million years have never opened up the WordPress Slack, GitHub is not a thing for them. And I&#8217;ve always wondered how people such as yourself, you know, in senior positions get that information. How does it get to you? And X, Bluesky, whatever the alternative is, that&#8217;s a really interesting way of kind of completely circumventing that process. I will make sure that your profile, your X profile is linked in here and then people can reach out on that basis. Yeah, that&#8217;s great. Thank you.</p>



<p>Let&#8217;s just paint the picture of Woo, and how big it is because we keep hearing the statistic. The one that everybody talks about is this 43%, which is the WordPress statistic. And I never quite know how to manage that in my head, what that exactly means. But a fairly sizable number is also the e-commerce side, the WooCommerce side of WordPress.</p>



<p>Where are we at in terms of the web, and in terms of WordPress, how much of WordPress is WooCommerce, and how much of the internet is Woo? And every time I hear this number, it changes a little bit. But every time I hear it, it&#8217;s still breathtakingly large.</p>



<p>[00:11:24] <strong>James Kemp:</strong> Yeah, that&#8217;s an interesting one actually. In terms of how much of WordPress is Woo, I&#8217;m not sure on that. I think we could probably calculate that based on the figures I do have, which is how much of e-commerce is WooCommerce, and that is 37%.</p>



<p>[00:11:41] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> 37%. Okay, so whatever the percentage is, be it the top million websites or the top 10,000 websites, whatever that metric is, let&#8217;s assume that that&#8217;s solid and safe. 37% is done on a WooCommerce platform. That is breathtaking.</p>



<p>[00:11:56] <strong>James Kemp:</strong> Which is a huge amount, for the listeners, and for you if you want to check it out later. If you go to woocommerce.com/newsroom, we update these numbers every month. We have some numbers there, like there&#8217;s 3.6 million live installations. 37% of e-commerce sites are powered by WooCommerce. There&#8217;s 1,000 plus official marketplace extensions. That&#8217;s actually going to grow, I think substantially this year.</p>



<p>And then, yeah, some other stats that are listed there, which I think are useful to keep an eye on. And there&#8217;s, I believe the team that updates those numbers kind of, they take the data primarily from Store Leads, which is a data gathering outfit. And I think they kind of dial them back a bit, rather than, you know, inflating them, I think they actually go the other way.</p>



<p>[00:12:41] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> In terms of the trend of that, so the 37%, I&#8217;m not looking at that chart at the moment, but is your impression that, has it stagnated, has it gone up broadly in the last, let&#8217;s say five years, something like that? Is WooCommerce basically growing, stagnating, declining?</p>



<p>[00:12:54] <strong>James Kemp:</strong> Over the five year, I would expect it&#8217;s gone up. There&#8217;s no graph to look at. There probably is somewhere, but I don&#8217;t have it in front of me now. But I do know that this was updated this week, I believe. And it was updated from 35% to 37. So there&#8217;s definite growth there. And I would expect, just the nature of e-commerce in general, that that number&#8217;s grown over the course.</p>



<p>[00:13:16] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> When you say that, what&#8217;s the thing in your head which is promoting you to say the nature of e-commerce? Because I really don&#8217;t follow e-commerce, but I have this impression that during the lockdown period, 2019 and on, it felt like everybody, for very credible reasons, had to move whatever they were selling to an online format. So I imagine there was a bump there.</p>



<p>But also it feels like the world is now inundated with pocket size technology, which means that I can buy anything 24/7, no matter where I am. And so it feels like high streets in the UK, the shutters are going up. Bricks and mortar shops seem to be closing. Certainly where I live, that is a broad trend. It&#8217;s not particularly rapid, but it&#8217;s definitely a trend.</p>



<p>And I&#8217;m imagining that the confluence of mobile technology, ubiquity of internet connection, computers available all over the place, certainly in the country where you and I both live. It feels like this inexorable rise, this trend towards purchasing things at 4 o&#8217;clock in the afternoon, sitting on a sofa, a bus, wherever you might be. It does feel like that&#8217;s the way the world is moving. Are those kind of the intuitions that you have when you say WooCommerce is rising for obvious reasons?</p>



<p>[00:14:23] <strong>James Kemp:</strong> Yeah, exactly. I think just the nature of the internet and the online world has kind of exponentially grown since its inception, right? And I would expect that e-commerce will grow with it.</p>



<p>I think one of the greatest things about the internet is that you can buy online. I should look into the history actually, but I can&#8217;t imagine what the thought process was back when the internet was invented. Did they imagine that e-commerce would be a thing? That people would buy stuff, even from the other side of the world, and have it shipped out to them in a matter of days or weeks.</p>



<p>And I just think as technology evolves, and we&#8217;ve seen the boom in AI, and just the boom in like generational development on computers, and coding and all of that is advancing, and I think e-commerce will follow suit as well.</p>



<p>[00:15:12] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, it feels like there&#8217;s no place but an upward trend for e-commerce. Now, whether or not WooCommerce fits into that landscape perfectly in the next decade, we&#8217;ll see. But it feels like I, and I can really only rely on myself, I feel like I&#8217;m going to buy more things online in the decade to come than I am this year. It feels like each and every year, my desire to get on my bike and go into the town centre dwindles, and I&#8217;m far more likely to buy things online.</p>



<p>And now the merchants have pivoted their offerings so that, you know, if you don&#8217;t like it, you can freely return it and things like that. So even the impediments that were there have suddenly changed, and it&#8217;s just remarkable.</p>



<p>And also the mere fact, just capture in your head for a moment, the fact that you can get all of this for no money down. The WooCommerce platform, and I know, in order to get the best out of it, you will definitely want marketplace things, third party, but other places as well. But the thing is free. It&#8217;s completely free. And I find that utterly remarkable. I just think that&#8217;s breathtaking in all honesty, that that&#8217;s available.</p>



<p>[00:16:15] <strong>James Kemp:</strong> Yeah, I think it&#8217;s one of the key selling points about WooCommerce is that you can get started for free, as close to free as possible, when you account for hosting and transactional fees that naturally come with any platform.</p>



<p>But on top of that, with WooCommerce specifically, and with the age of AI now, you could make WooCommerce do what you want it to do for free. And every site could be tailored to specific needs, and like a specific execution of functionality without too much technical knowledge, which I think is really interesting.</p>



<p>And you&#8217;ve seen people are building apps, and I&#8217;ve built a few as well, specifically for needs that they want to solve. I saw one yesterday, I think it was Maddie on, Twitter, I can link to it. She built an app to automatically put an emoji over faces in photos. I don&#8217;t know if you&#8217;ve seen, when parents share photos of other people&#8217;s children and that kind of thing, they typically put an emoji over the face. She said she was getting annoyed at having to do that with every photo. But we&#8217;re in that era now where you can kind of roll these things with no technical knowledge, whether the output is good, I think is questionable, but it&#8217;s pretty good.</p>



<p>[00:17:24] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Does the advent of AI, and what you&#8217;re suggesting, you can add your third party stuff, if you like, for want of a better word, to WooCommerce with the assistance of AI. Does that undermine the longevity of the free, open source WooCommerce project? Because I imagine that there&#8217;s a lot of underpinnings there, you know, the marketplace that WooCommerce, as I imagine those plugins that are sold to add different functionality and what have you, that must in some way pay for the freeness of it all.</p>



<p>Does AI, does that concern you? You know, that if we erode the need to purchase third party software in order to get out what you desire, yeah, does that erode the possibility of WooCommerce being free in the future?</p>



<p>[00:18:05] <strong>James Kemp:</strong> I don&#8217;t think so. I think it assists. I think it depends what you&#8217;re making. Like, I wouldn&#8217;t want to build out a full subscriptions platform just using an AI prompt. And maybe that will become more advanced in the future. I think as someone running a business, you don&#8217;t want to be dealing with this code yourself, maintaining it, making sure it stays up to date. And I think that&#8217;s the case for, or that has been the case since e-commerce software existed. There used to be a trend of rolling your own e-commerce solutions, and I think that&#8217;s less likely to happen these days.</p>



<p>[00:18:39] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, it&#8217;s a good point. If you think about just a regular WordPress website, if it&#8217;s just a brochure site with no e-commerce attached, go with the AI, you know, it seems like there&#8217;s loads of scope there. But obviously if you&#8217;ve got the compliance, and the financial obligation, and all of the law that underpins an e-commerce shop, I imagine there are impediments in people&#8217;s heads which will say, wait, did an AI make that? Are we really going to trust that? So maybe it inoculates itself given the nature of the websites which are in question.</p>



<p>Okay, just moving on, tell us a little bit about the kind of people that are using WooCommerce. Now, I know this is a very, very broad question, but in my head, for some reason I have it, that a significant amount of people that are using WooCommerce will be small stores. But I&#8217;m guessing also maybe WooCommerce really does dig deep into the enterprise as well. Does it run the gamut of everything? Or is there a kind of focus for you, and teams within Automattic because there&#8217;s a certain type of clientele which largely consume WooCommerce?</p>



<p>[00:19:37] <strong>James Kemp:</strong> Yeah, it does kind of span everything. So people just starting out either want low cost, in which case WooCommerce is an obvious choice. You can start setting things up, especially for brand new e-commerce, whereas they&#8217;re just selling single products. There&#8217;s nothing too technical there that would require an expense of some kind. So it&#8217;s super easy to spin up a WooCommerce site and test it out pretty much free.</p>



<p>So yeah, we have that audience. It&#8217;s not necessarily our focus, our focus is primarily the higher revenue, higher traffic e-commerce stores, because that&#8217;s the aspiration for anyone selling, right? They want to become successful, they want that to be their business, is e-commerce. And those are the users that we&#8217;re focused on. And then naturally anything we do for them is going to trickle down to benefit the people who are just starting out with the platform.</p>



<p>So it does span a wide range of users, but we do focus in on the higher revenue and high product volume, high traffic, those kind of things. Or at least that&#8217;s what we&#8217;re focusing on this year. That target evolves over time. But that&#8217;s been our focus for most of my time since I&#8217;ve been here. So it&#8217;s nice to have that vision of who&#8217;s using it and what we can do to make the platform as good as possible for them.</p>



<p>[00:20:52] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> We have this expression in the UK, Jack of all trades, master of none. I don&#8217;t know how that works outside of the boundaries of the UK, but it basically means if you try to be everything to everybody, you sort of succeed at nothing. It&#8217;s something akin to that basically.</p>



<p>And I&#8217;m wondering if there are bits of WooCommerce which you have to manage those sort of trade offs. Like, okay, if we build this thing, which feels like it&#8217;s a real enterprisey thing, how is that going to work with our more modest users, let&#8217;s say?</p>



<p>Or if we really focus on the more modest users, how are the enterprise going to feel like that? And it not being a niche, and it being the full spectrum of sites out there, yeah, at times that must be actually quite frustrating, I would&#8217;ve thought.</p>



<p>[00:21:29] <strong>James Kemp:</strong> It&#8217;s a challenge, yeah. It&#8217;s something that we&#8217;re working on at the moment, is making the base of WooCommerce have the majority of features for the majority of users, the features that you&#8217;d expect in an e-commerce platform, which I&#8217;ve touched on in other podcasts if you want to go and find them.</p>



<p>But it&#8217;s a process called More in Core, which is the kind of code name for it. Where we&#8217;re just trying to build out the base product to have the majority of things that merchants and builders need, without needing to go and find all these plugins and custom development and things like that.</p>



<p>But the challenge is which features. The features that people need are going to change depending on what type of store they&#8217;re running. So I&#8217;ve seen a lot of people want subscriptions in Core. And then I&#8217;ve also seen the complete opposite where people don&#8217;t want subscriptions in Core because they see it as bloat. There&#8217;s a challenge there for sure, to figure out what that kind of sweet spot is without being bloated, but also without nickel and dimming, and making the average number of plugins required too high or too low.</p>



<p>[00:22:28] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> I&#8217;ve often thought that if I worked at Microsoft on Windows, the software, the OS, it would be my constant annoyance that I had to think about every possible permutation of hardware that could ever be used. Whereas if I worked for Apple and was working on the Mac OS project, it&#8217;d be like, there&#8217;s just this one set of hardware, it&#8217;s just so much more straightforward, we build it.</p>



<p>And I imagine that commercial rivals, things like Shopify, and we can get into that in a moment, probably have it easier in that sense because there isn&#8217;t this, well, I know that they have an ecosystem of sort of third party apps, I believe they&#8217;re called. But there isn&#8217;t this whole backwards compatibility thing that 5,000 different plugins that bind into WooCommerce and what have you. And so I guess you&#8217;ve always got to be taking real careful steps when you develop a new feature or tweak anything, which maybe the other platforms don&#8217;t have to think about in quite the same way.</p>



<p>[00:23:16] <strong>James Kemp:</strong> Yeah, I actually posted about that exact thing on X or Twitter earlier. I&#8217;m just going to call it X. I want to call it Twitter, but I&#8217;m going to call it X. It&#8217;s a challenge because, and this touches on the 37% number, like any update we roll out is affecting over a third of all e-commerce stores online, which is a crazy number.</p>



<p>It has to be backwards compatible, it has to be rolled out in a way that isn&#8217;t going to break things. There&#8217;s a lot more consideration that needs to happen because of the multitude of environments that could exist. There could be bad hosting, there could be good hosting. There could be low performance, high performance, number of products, different plugins, different themes.</p>



<p>For a platform like ours, that is one of the greatest challenges, but also one of the greatest strengths as well, because of how flexible it is. In a platform like Shopify, like you say, they have an app marketplace, but it&#8217;s a lot more restricted. There&#8217;s only really a handful of ways to do something. Whereas with WooCommerce, you&#8217;ve kind of got full control because you are hosting it yourself. You can pretty much do anything. Which, like I say, is a challenge, but also a strength.</p>



<p>It requires navigation, and I touched on this in a, I do a monthly, Inside wooCommerce podcast. The last one that went out was with Julia, who is the lead for our release process. And it&#8217;s worth a listen, because it&#8217;s quite interesting to hear, now, how we roll out releases and how we&#8217;re able to test and watch for signals for issues that might arise. And be able to roll it back, fix that, and then roll out the updates. There&#8217;s quite a nice process there now, which we&#8217;ll obviously refine as time goes on, but yeah, it&#8217;s a challenge.</p>



<p>[00:24:59] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> More recently, and we don&#8217;t need to get into the story behind it, but there is a story behind it. But the Automatticians, so the people that work for Automattic, have in some cases been repurposed. So their work that they&#8217;ve been doing for many years in one direction has now been pivoted. And I think it&#8217;s probably fair to say that focusing on things which generate revenue is a crucial part of the decision behind that.</p>



<p>I&#8217;m wondering if that&#8217;s had an impact. So this whole thing is not really that old, it&#8217;s maybe only five, six weeks old, something like that, so maybe it hasn&#8217;t yet. But I&#8217;m wondering if it&#8217;s had actually a positive impact on the teams that you work with, or maybe there&#8217;s steady away, no change.</p>



<p>[00:25:38] <strong>James Kemp:</strong> I would say there&#8217;s no change actually. I mean, WooCommerce has always been, we&#8217;re building a free product, but we are also a business, and we&#8217;ve always been a business. We wouldn&#8217;t be able to afford to put out a product and not have any money coming in to continue developing it. There&#8217;s always been a business aspect to WooCommerce.</p>



<p>But yeah, the teams that have kind of moved off of the open source contributions that they were making previously, I haven&#8217;t seen any of them come over to WooCommerce. And maybe they have, if they come in as engineers, then I probably wouldn&#8217;t see that anyway. But yeah, in my day to day, I haven&#8217;t seen an impact. But, you know, Automattic has multiple products and experiments and things that exist outside of WooCommerce, and I honestly don&#8217;t dig into them too much. I&#8217;m very focused on the WooCommerce side of things.</p>



<p>[00:26:27] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> You&#8217;ve recently, I say you, WooCommerce recently had an entire upending of the branding. If you don&#8217;t follow it very closely, it may be that you haven&#8217;t seen this story, but maybe it was not that long ago in the last week or so. It feels like the message dropped that a lot of the branding has been redone, and I often look at rebranding and I think why all that effort?</p>



<p>What was really the point of that? What was the need to upend everything, and make people have to see something new? And I&#8217;m just wondering if you know what the point of that was? I mean, it&#8217;s nice. It looks lovely. Don&#8217;t get me wrong. I thoroughly love it. But I&#8217;m curious as to what the reasoning was. Did it feel stale previously? What was going on there? Do you know?</p>



<p>[00:27:06] <strong>James Kemp:</strong> All of the above, yeah. So I&#8217;ve known about the branding, in its current form of, what it&#8217;s gonna be like since maybe October last year. And it&#8217;s been really interesting to watch. If you compare what we had previously against this, it&#8217;s clear like why it had to happen. The branding that we had previously was the same branding that WooCommerce had when it was initially formed via WooThemes. If you compare it, it just looks out of date. The colors are flat and, not very inspiring. And the new branding now allows us to be a bit more modern, I think. It&#8217;s modernized the brand.</p>



<p>But it also opens us up to be able to go out and do more effective marketing and acquisition that we haven&#8217;t done prior. Branding isn&#8217;t just changing the logo and updating some colors. There&#8217;s a whole array of assets that come with it, and like a story behind the assets and what we&#8217;re trying to put out there into the world. Which we didn&#8217;t have before, we just had a logo and some colors.</p>



<p>[00:28:04] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> There&#8217;s this sort of nod to a shopping cart in the W of Woo, which is actually quite clever, I think. And you&#8217;re right, it does just smack of more modern.</p>



<p>Being a complete non-designer, I can never summon up the vocabulary to express why I think something looks good. But saw the new branding, and I saw the video that was associated with that, and I did think, yeah, that&#8217;s great. That looks really great, but I can&#8217;t for the life of me tell you why it looks great.</p>



<p>But interestingly though, was there a market push, not just because it was stale, and let&#8217;s move this conversation into the rise of the SaaS. Because over the last period, the Wixs, the Squarespaces, the Shopify and all of these other things, I&#8217;m sure there&#8217;s many more. They&#8217;ve brought to the market a fairly affordable alternative. There&#8217;s nothing free, as far as I&#8217;m aware, but it&#8217;s a fairly low monthly cost. And I imagine over time these companies are eating up some of the new people, maybe even taking people from WooCommerce. I imagine it&#8217;s a bit of ebb and flow and what have you.</p>



<p>But was it that, were they becoming more professional, more visible in the world? Super Bowl ads and all that kind of thing. Was there some of that in the rebranding as well?</p>



<p>[00:29:14] <strong>James Kemp:</strong> Yeah, I imagine so. I think if you look at our branding previously, I don&#8217;t think it was necessarily thought out as a brand as such. I think it evolved over time. Whereas this was, the rebrand was much more focused, who are we trying to connect with here? What type of customer are we trying to pull in? And how can we reach them? What do they want to see? And I don&#8217;t think we had that before.</p>



<p>And yeah, definitely it helps us compete with these SaaS solutions that are quite easy to pitch. You know, influencer can pitch this stuff, because they have cool branding and, it&#8217;s hard to say really.</p>



<p>Like I think you could say about any product, like if Apple had a really badly designed, like 3D Apple from the nineties as their logo. In this modern era of what you expect from a brand, and a brand that&#8217;s powering 37% of all e-commerce or, I don&#8217;t what Apple&#8217;s market share on mobile devices is, but I imagine it&#8217;s pretty high.</p>



<p>It&#8217;s just something that needs to be considered, and there needs to be a thought process behind why we look like we do, and who we want to attract with that. And we didn&#8217;t have that before with the previous speech bubble thing.</p>



<p>[00:30:25] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> I remember listening to, I believe it was Bill Gates, this is many years ago, and Bill Gates was asked a question by an interviewer and it was, what keeps you awake at night, in terms of the longevity of Microsoft? And he said three things. Google, Google and Google. And basically he&#8217;s terrified of Google.</p>



<p>I&#8217;m gonna pitch the same sort of question to you. Of the SaaS things out there, are there any bits out there which make the Woo team think, oh gosh, that&#8217;s interesting. We need to copy that?</p>



<p>Does the sort of gouging out of the pricing, their very affordable pricing, those kind of things. How do you cope with that? How do you compete with that, with something which is basically free? I don&#8217;t know if that keeps you awake at night.</p>



<p>[00:31:06] <strong>James Kemp:</strong> Obviously like any business has its competitors. There&#8217;s nothing that&#8217;s come up that we&#8217;ve been like, oh, we&#8217;ve got to copy that and we&#8217;ve got to get that in. It&#8217;s more like comparatively are we offering an equal playing field to a potential customer?</p>



<p>And this ties back into the More in Core stuff that I was talking about. Is there stuff that not just Shopify, but other platforms have in their core offering, and this may be like low priced or free plans, or there&#8217;s other self-hosted versions as well that exist. They are comparatively free. Are we offering the same functionality? Do we have those essential features available? Yeah, we do, but do we charge for them? Probably, if there&#8217;s stuff that&#8217;s missing, there&#8217;s probably a premium extension for it. Or there&#8217;s a free extension for it, but it requires the merchant to go out and find it, rather than like us presenting it to them as a solution when they need it contextually.</p>



<p>Yeah, things like that are definitely considerations. We need to be innovating, and we need to be keeping up as well. That could be said about any platform versus another platform that there&#8217;s always, again, going back to Apple, Apple and Samsung have this kind of to and fro.</p>



<p>So yeah, it&#8217;s a consideration for sure. The target audience of someone going onto Shopify versus someone going onto WooCommerce is slightly different. The kind of core things that they are looking for are what we need to be offering.</p>



<p>[00:32:31] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Okay, that&#8217;s interesting because if I was a WooCommerce user, which as I explained I&#8217;m not, that would be the sentence I needed to hear, I think. The people working in the offices and the places where you are working is, okay, we are keeping an eye on what the competition are doing. And if something is a moving, shaking feature, which is upsetting the industry and everybody wants it, then you&#8217;ve at least got your beedy on it.</p>



<p>[00:32:55] <strong>James Kemp:</strong> That&#8217;s one part of it as well. What are the competitors doing, but also what are our marketplace sales saying? What are the trends saying in e-commerce, even TikTok, Amazon, like all those kind of things that aren&#8217;t directly related to what we do, that&#8217;s accounted for as well.</p>



<p>And also what are the customers saying? And we touched on it earlier, but we have a whole, what we call the feedback river, which is just a big database of feedback from everywhere. From within the plugin itself. From support. From reviews and from wordpress.org, and like all of these places combined into one database. So yeah, I think you have to keep an eye on all of it. And the challenge is figuring out is this essential? What percentage of users actually want this specific thing?</p>



<p>And actually that&#8217;s always been a challenge, like even working on much smaller scale products at Iconic, it was always hard if a customer reaches out and says, oh, I wish it did this, it was hard to say no to that, because you are excited that someone&#8217;s using it, and they want to adapt it to their own use case. But you have to take into account, is the effort to implement this going to be valuable for everyone? Is this the priority for the majority, or is it just going satisfy this one person? You have to do that at scale now, or I have to do that at scale.</p>



<p>[00:34:14] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> I know that time is short, so I&#8217;m just going to pivot just for one final question before we leave and it&#8217;s, it really has nothing to do with WooCommerce specifically, although it may? And that is, I&#8217;m just curious if you know of any interesting things which are happening around the periphery of e-commerce that you personally are finding interesting and engaging. Something that maybe our general audience won&#8217;t have come across, because they&#8217;re not deep in the weeds of it.</p>



<p>That could be inside WordPress. I dunno, the Interactivity API, or it could be something the browsers are thinking about doing, or third party vendors who&#8217;ve got some curious technology that we might not have heard of.</p>



<p>So, really just any interesting thing that James has spotted lately that you think we might want to look at?</p>



<p>[00:34:54] <strong>James Kemp:</strong> Yeah, I dunno whether I have anything that nobody&#8217;s ever heard of.</p>



<p>[00:34:57] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> That&#8217;s fine.</p>



<p>[00:34:58] <strong>James Kemp:</strong> There&#8217;s a definite rise in platforms offering their own e-commerce. So, TikTok, commerce and all that kind of stuff is growing. And you touched on, something before we started the call actually, which kind of relates to that, the ability to see something on a device and just purchase it there and then. And within TikTok you get that experience. Within a typical e-commerce platform, you have a flow that you go through. You&#8217;ve got the cart, and then the checkout. You&#8217;ve got to populate details. So yeah, I think there&#8217;s gonna be a, an evolution into how quickly can I buy something. And that&#8217;s what the merchants want. Whether it&#8217;s good for the population and spending habits, I&#8217;m not entirely sure.</p>



<p>I personally love the experience on, like Amazon, for example, and I don&#8217;t know how long they&#8217;ve had it, it&#8217;s been there a while now. But on product pages, you don&#8217;t need to go through the cart process, you can just click buy now. Although that has tripped me up a couple of times.</p>



<p>[00:35:53] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, me too.</p>



<p>[00:35:54] <strong>James Kemp:</strong> You press buy now, and it goes on some card that you never use.</p>



<p>So yeah, I think that is a definite kind of trend, that I&#8217;ve seen a lot of. And I think we touched on something earlier as well, which I haven&#8217;t seen much in the way of solutions to it. But one of the key things about people buying from a brick and mortar is that they can try on the product and they can physically see the color of a product, and touch the product. Which is possible. You can order now and it&#8217;s getting a lot easier to return stuff. But can you do that with a sofa, for example? So, I expect that we&#8217;ll see some innovations around that.</p>



<p>[00:36:33] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Sort of augmented solution, where you can drop room and, yeah, size it up, and things like that.</p>



<p>[00:36:38] <strong>James Kemp:</strong> Yeah. I don&#8217;t know what that looks like.</p>



<p>[00:36:40] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> No, and it will be sort of a strange simulation of reality, but probably enough to get a proportion of the people over the wire, I would&#8217;ve thought.</p>



<p>[00:36:48] <strong>James Kemp:</strong> Yeah, for sure. There&#8217;s been AR stuff for a while now, right?</p>



<p>[00:36:51] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, and things like, you want to put a logo on a t-shirt, here&#8217;s what that look like on the t-shirt. Those kind of things.</p>



<p>I think for me, one of the most, most interesting things is what the mobile wallets have done to my capacity to spend. I just that is remarkable. Especially out in the real world where you take the Tube in London, the underground, and you just don&#8217;t do anything anymore. You just walk by a thing, and your phone&#8217;s in your pocket, and it registers it, and you walk out and at the end of the day you get a bill, and so these kind of seamless solutions.</p>



<p>[00:37:21] <strong>James Kemp:</strong> I don&#8217;t feel like you have that so much on a computer though.</p>



<p>[00:37:24] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> No, but I wonder if that&#8217;s coming with, I don&#8217;t know, biometrics. Like purchase this, put your finger print in, your done.</p>



<p>[00:37:33] <strong>James Kemp:</strong> I think that would be nice. I still populate, I use 1Password, so it does it for me, but I still populate the card.</p>



<p>[00:37:39] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> An intermediary, a trusted intermediary getting in the way. Yeah, it&#8217;s interesting. Again, I wonder if those kind of things might be handled natively by browsers, and things like that.</p>



<p>Anyway, we&#8217;re sort of staring into the future, and we&#8217;ve no idea. But I know that you&#8217;ve got to go in about 30 seconds time, so I will just round it off by saying James Kemp, fascinating chat about all things WooCommerce. I appreciate it, and all the hard work you and your team are doing to democratize e-commerce. Is there anything you want to add just before we round it off? Maybe a Twitter handle or something like that?</p>



<p>[00:38:08] <strong>James Kemp:</strong> I&#8217;m jamesckemp on most things. C, the letter C. Yeah. The only thing I&#8217;ll add is just, if you have questions, ideas, theories, my dms are open there, so I&#8217;m happy to hear it.</p>



<p>[00:38:21] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Well, thank you very much, James Kemp. Been a pleasure chatting to you today. Really appreciate it.</p>



<p>[00:38:25] <strong>James Kemp:</strong> Thank you very much.</p>
</div>



<p>On the podcast today we have <a href="https://x.com/jamesckemp">James Kemp</a>.</p>



<p>James is the Core Product Lead for WooCommerce. After working with WooCommerce running a plugin shop for 10 years, he joined the team at the end of 2023 to help shape the future of e-commerce.</p>



<p>James talks about his journey with WordPress and WooCommerce and explains his role at Automattic, where he&#8217;s tasked with connecting the community&#8217;s feedback to the developments in WooCommerce, ensuring that the Woo platform continually evolves and improves.</p>



<p>He discusses the innovations within WooCommerce, the challenges of balancing the needs of small and large-scale stores, and how the team navigates an environment filled with both competitors and opportunities.</p>



<p>He gets into the positive impact of WooCommerce&#8217;s recent rebranding, and how the system positions itself amidst the ever-growing competition from SaaS platforms like Shopify. James shares his insights into the trends shaping e-commerce, like the seamless integration of newer technologies and consumer buying habits.</p>



<p>If you are keen to understand the breadth of WooCommerce&#8217;s impact on e-commerce, or are curious about the direction of online shopping, this episode is for you.</p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading">Useful links</h2>



<p><a href="https://woocommerce.com/">WooCommerce</a></p>



<p><a href="https://iconicwp.com/">IconicWP</a></p>



<p><a href="https://kestrelwp.com/">Kestrel WP</a></p>



<p><a href="https://mindsize.com/author/pmgarman/">Patrick Garmen</a> from Mindsize</p>



<p><a href="https://woocommerce.com/newsroom/">Woo Newsroom</a></p>



<p><a href="https://storeleads.app/">Store Leads</a></p>



<p><a href="https://developer.woocommerce.com/2024/12/12/woocommerce-in-2025/">Details about &#8216;More in Core&#8217;</a></p>



<p><a href="https://dothewoo.io/podcasts/inside-woo/">Inside Woo podcast</a></p>



<p><a href="https://x.com/jamesckemp">James on X</a></p>";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Wed, 05 Mar 2025 15:00:00 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:14:"Nathan Wrigley";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:1;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:13:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:82:"Do The Woo Community: Decentralized Social Networks &amp; WordPress with Alex Kirk";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:28:"https://dothewoo.io/?p=91326";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:75:"https://dothewoo.io/decentralized-social-networks-wordpress-with-alex-kirk/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:178:"In the episode of Open Web Conversations, Matthias talks with Alex about the Friends plugin, decentralized networks, and transforming WordPress into a social networking platform.";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Wed, 05 Mar 2025 13:54:45 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:5:"BobWP";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:2;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:13:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:58:"Do The Woo Community: WP Day and WP Zone at CloudFest 2025";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:43:"https://dothewoo.io/?post_type=blog&p=92418";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:62:"https://dothewoo.io/blog/wp-day-and-wp-zone-at-cloudfest-2025/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:195:"CloudFest 2025 will occur from March 17-20 in Germany, featuring the WP Zone to connect WordPress and cloud communities, offering networking, tools, and collaboration opportunities for attendees.";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Wed, 05 Mar 2025 09:31:00 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:5:"BobWP";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:3;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:13:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:69:"HeroPress: From Warfare to WordPress: How We Survived and Transformed";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:56:"https://heropress.com/?post_type=heropress-essays&p=7787";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:188:"https://heropress.com/essays/from-warfare-to-wordpress-how-we-survived-and-transformed/#utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=from-warfare-to-wordpress-how-we-survived-and-transformed";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:7839:"<img width="1024" height="512" src="https://heropress.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/03/030325-min.jpg" class="attachment-large size-large wp-post-image" alt="Pull Quote: WordPress kept us afloat. It fed us." />
Here is Aleksandr reading his own story aloud.





<p>Dedicated to the third sorrowful anniversary of the war. With gratitude to our European partners.</p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading" id="h-a-company-built-in-the-heart-of-kharkiv">A Company Built in the Heart of Kharkiv</h2>



<p>Before the war, our company was thriving in the center of Kharkiv — a large, developed, and beautiful million-strong city. We lived and worked just 45 kilometers away from what turned out to be a massive ticking time bomb.</p>



<p>We had just completed a beautiful new office renovation — a space filled with energy, collaboration, and ambition. At the time, DreamDev had two divisions: one handling large-scale projects with Laravel and Vue.js, and the other — a WordPress agency primarily working with Elementor and WPBakery.</p>



<p>We believed our future lay in big, ambitious U.S. projects. We chased tight deadlines, endured weekend calls, and thrived under pressure. It was exhausting and stressful, but we had no idea that the real challenge was yet to come.</p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading" id="h-february-24-2022-the-day-our-world-collapsed">February 24, 2022 – The Day Our World Collapsed</h2>



<p>No one believed war was possible. Even as rumors spread, we convinced ourselves: </p>



<blockquote class="wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow">
<p>&#8220;This can’t happen. Not here. Not in the 21st century&#8221;&nbsp;</p>
</blockquote>



<p>Then, at 4 AM on February 24, our world turned upside down. Our work chats flooded with messages: &#8220;The war has started.&#8221; Explosions shook the city. The sky turned red with fire. Deafening sounds filled the air. We later learned they were Grad rockets, but at that moment, all we felt was shock, fear, and disbelief.</p>



<p>Our brand-new office stood empty. The streets outside looked like a scene from a dystopian movie — people running, children crying, cars were abandoned. As we hurried to gather what we could, Russian tanks were already at the city’s outskirts.</p>



<p>And just like that, a new chapter of DreamDev’s story had begun.</p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading" id="h-survival-mode-when-there-s-no-plan-just-action">Survival Mode: When There’s No Plan, Just Action</h2>



<p>We left Kharkiv, seeking shelter in an old house on the city’s outskirts — a place built before World War I. A war from another time, yet history was repeating itself. Our memories from those first days are scattered, and fragmented — banks stopped working, teammates went silent, chaos spread. We had no answers. But we had work. So, five days into the war, we sent out a message to our partners: <em>&#8220;Please don’t worry. We are still working.&#8221;</em></p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading" id="h-losing-everything-and-gaining-something-even-greater">Losing Everything – and Gaining Something Even Greater</h2>



<p>Then came the real test. Most of our U.S. partners left. A major Norwegian project was scared to death of the news and canceled the team of 3 developers and a PM working for them. We lost our biggest contracts. But something we never expected happened:<br />Every single one of our European partners stayed. Not only that — they gave us even more projects.</p>



<p>They believed in us. They supported us. And because of them, we survived. Laravel projects disappeared. We lost key developers. But WordPress kept us afloat. It fed us. It fed our families in the hardest moments.</p>



<p>So we focused on what we did best: custom, complex WordPress development.</p>



<p>The team kept evolving. We became our own sales department, reaching out from a century-old house while watching missiles hit the heart of Kharkiv and fighter jets fall from the sky.</p>



<blockquote class="wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow">
<p>&#8220;I will never forget the sound of a plane flying over my head. The mushroom cloud rising above the Officers&#8217; House. The windows in my home were blown out by the blast wave.&#8221;</p>
</blockquote>



<p>At that time, only four of us remained in Kharkiv — two founders, our HR manager, and a project manager. Everyone else had left.</p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading" id="h-back-to-the-office-and-into-the-fire">Back to the Office – And Into the Fire</h2>



<p>After six months of working from home, we made the decision: Return to the office. Every commute felt like it could be the last. But we had no choice — we had to keep moving forward.</p>



<p>By the end of 2022, we fully committed to what we did best: custom WordPress development and complex UX/UI design</p>



<p>It was hard. It was frustrating. But it was stimulating. At this point, it felt like a survival game.</p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading" id="h-blackouts-bombs-and-business-as-usual">Blackouts, Bombs, and Business as Usual</h2>



<p>As Russian missiles targeted Ukraine’s power grid, the country was plunged into darkness. The only sound? Generators humming in the streets. We spent hours hunting for an internet connection, sitting in gas stations, just to tell our partners: </p>



<blockquote class="wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow">
<p>&#8220;We are alive. Your project will be delivered on time.&#8221;&nbsp;</p>
</blockquote>



<p>With no electricity, no news, and no phone signal, we kept working. Our European partners kept us afloat.</p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading" id="h-the-team-that-never-stopped">The Team That Never Stopped</h2>



<p>By 2023, almost our entire pre-war team was gone. New faces joined, but the spirit remained the same: Adapt. Survive. Deliver.</p>



<blockquote class="wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow">
<p>We worked without electricity, without water, without heating. </p>
</blockquote>



<p>Some in Kharkiv, some in Poltava, some in Dnipro. But we never stopped building. Reflecting on the past, it&#8217;s hard to believe that we were able to endure and remain steadfast.</p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading" id="h-2024-wordpress-is-changing-so-are-we">2024: WordPress Is Changing. So Are We.</h2>



<p>This year, WordPress is evolving — the rise of low-code and no-code solutions is shifting the landscape. The war’s impact on the European economy&#8217;s growth and projects is slowing down. But our partners — the ones who stood by us — were still here.&nbsp;</p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading" id="h-2025-the-war-continues-but-so-do-we">2025: The War Continues, But So Do We</h2>



<p>The war isn’t over. And yet, the partners and teammates who believed in us never left. This is more than just WordPress development. This is resilience. This is survival. This is the future we are building together.&nbsp;</p>


<div class="kb-row-layout-wrap kb-row-layout-id7787_60f515-6b alignfull kt-row-has-bg wp-block-kadence-rowlayout"><div class="kt-row-column-wrap kt-has-1-columns kt-row-layout-equal kt-tab-layout-inherit kt-mobile-layout-row kt-row-valign-top">

<div class="wp-block-kadence-column kadence-column7787_2a9fc3-fa"><div class="kt-inside-inner-col">
<p class="kt-adv-heading7787_deaaf3-3e wp-block-kadence-advancedheading">Editor&#8217;s Note: The normal fee for the banner for this essay will instead be donated to a charity that supports Ukraine.</p>
</div></div>

</div></div><p>The post <a href="https://heropress.com/essays/from-warfare-to-wordpress-how-we-survived-and-transformed/">From Warfare to WordPress: How We Survived and Transformed</a> appeared first on <a href="https://heropress.com">HeroPress</a>.</p>";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Wed, 05 Mar 2025 06:00:00 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:13:"Aleks Bochlin";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:4;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:13:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:40:"WordPress.org blog: WordPress 6.8 Beta 1";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:35:"https://wordpress.org/news/?p=18582";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:56:"https://wordpress.org/news/2025/03/wordpress-6-8-beta-1/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:10301:"<p>WordPress 6.8 Beta 1 is ready for download and testing!</p>



<p><strong>This beta version of the WordPress software is under development.</strong> Please do not install, run, or test this version of WordPress on production or mission-critical websites. Instead, set up a test environment or a local site to explore the new features.</p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading">How to Test WordPress 6.8 Beta 1</h2>



<p>You can test this beta release in any of the following ways:&nbsp;</p>



<table class="has-fixed-layout"><tbody><tr><td><strong>WordPress Beta Tester Plugin</strong></td><td>Install and activate the <a href="https://wordpress.org/plugins/wordpress-beta-tester/">WordPress Beta Tester</a> plugin on a WordPress install. Select the “Bleeding edge” channel and “Beta/RC Only” stream.</td></tr><tr><td><strong>Direct Download</strong></td><td>Download the <a href="https://wordpress.org/wordpress-6.8-beta1.zip">Beta 1 version (zip)</a> and install it on a WordPress website.</td></tr><tr><td><strong>Command Line (WP-CLI)</strong></td><td>Use this <a href="https://make.wordpress.org/cli/">WP-CLI</a> command: wp core update &#8211;version=6.8-beta1</td></tr><tr><td><strong>WordPress Playground</strong></td><td>Use a <a href="https://playground.wordpress.net/?php=8.0&wp=beta&networking=no&language=&multisite=no&random=r8nny4q18x">6.8 Beta 1 WordPress Playground instance</a> to test the software directly in your browser. No setup required–-just click and go!</td></tr></tbody></table>



<p>The scheduled final release date for WordPress 6.8 is <strong>April 15, 2025</strong>. Your help testing Beta and RC versions over the next six weeks is vital to ensuring the final release is everything it should be: stable, powerful, and intuitive.</p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading">How important is your testing?</h2>



<p>Testing for issues is a critical part of developing any software, and it’s a meaningful way for anyone to contribute—whether or not you have experience.&nbsp; <a href="https://make.wordpress.org/test/2025/03/04/help-test-wordpress-6-8/">Details on what to test in WordPress 6.8 are here</a>.</p>



<p>If you encounter an issue, please share it in the <a href="https://wordpress.org/support/forum/alphabeta/">Alpha/Beta area</a> of the support forums. If you are comfortable submitting a reproducible bug report, you can do so <a href="https://core.trac.wordpress.org/newticket">via WordPress Trac</a>. You can also check your issue against this list of <a href="https://core.trac.wordpress.org/tickets/major">known bugs</a>.</p>



<p>Curious about testing releases in general and how to get started? Follow along with the<a href="https://make.wordpress.org/test/"> testing initiatives in Make Core</a> and join the <a href="https://wordpress.slack.com/messages/core-test/">#core-test channel</a> on <a href="https://wordpress.slack.com/">Making WordPress Slack</a>.</p>



<p>WordPress 6.8 will include many new features that were previously only available in the Gutenberg plugin. Learn more about Gutenberg updates since WordPress 6.7 in the<a href="https://make.wordpress.org/core/tag/gutenberg-new/"> What’s New in Gutenberg</a> posts for versions<a href="https://make.wordpress.org/core/2024/06/09/what-is-new-in-gutenberg-18-5-05-jun/"> </a><a href="https://make.wordpress.org/core/2024/10/09/whats-new-in-gutenberg-15-9-31-may-2/">19.4</a>, <a href="https://make.wordpress.org/core/2024/10/24/whats-new-in-gutenberg-19-5-23-october/">19.5</a>, <a href="https://make.wordpress.org/core/2024/11/06/whats-new-in-gutenberg-15-9-31-may-2-2/">19.6</a>, <a href="https://make.wordpress.org/core/2024/11/20/whats-new-in-gutenberg-19-7-20-november/">19.7</a>, <a href="https://make.wordpress.org/core/2024/12/04/whats-new-in-gutenberg-19-8-4-december/">19.8</a>, <a href="https://make.wordpress.org/core/2024/12/18/whats-new-in-gutenberg-19-9-19-december/">19.9</a>, <a href="https://make.wordpress.org/core/2025/01/11/whats-new-in-gutenberg-20-0-10-january/">20.0</a>, <a href="https://make.wordpress.org/core/2025/02/08/whats-new-in-gutenberg-20-1-and-20-2/">20.1, 20.2</a>, <a href="https://make.wordpress.org/core/2025/03/03/whats-new-in-gutenberg-20-3-18-february/">20.3</a>, and 20.4.</p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading">What’s New in WordPress 6.8 Beta 1</h2>



<p>This is a polish release, with user enhancements throughout incorporated into the latest Gutenberg updates. WordPress 6.8 brings a luster and gloss that only a polish release can.</p>



<p>WordPress 6.8 Beta 1 contains over 370 enhancements and 520 bug fixes for the editor, including design improvements, polishing the query loop, and more than <a href="https://core.trac.wordpress.org/query?status=closed&milestone=6.8&group=component&max=500&col=id&col=summary&col=owner&col=type&col=priority&col=component&col=version&order=priority">230 tickets for WordPress 6.8 Core</a>. Here’s a glimpse of what’s coming:</p>



<h3 class="wp-block-heading">Editor improvements</h3>



<p>Easier ways to see your options in Data Views, and you can opt to ignore sticky posts in the Query Loop. Plus you’ll find lots of little improvements in the editor!</p>



<h3 class="wp-block-heading">The Style Book comes to Classic themes</h3>



<p>The Style Book now features a <a href="https://github.com/WordPress/gutenberg/issues/68036">structured layout</a> so you can preview site colors, typography, and block styles more easily. You can use the Style Book in classic themes with editor-styles or a theme.json file and includes clearer labels, and you can find them under <code>Appearance &gt; Design</code>.</p>



<h3 class="wp-block-heading">Support for Speculation browser API</h3>



<p>WordPress 6.8 introduces native support for speculative loading, leveraging the <a href="https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Speculation_Rules_API">Speculation Rules API</a> to improve site performance with near-instant page loads. This feature prefetches or prerenders URLs based on user interactions, such as hovering over links, reducing load times for subsequent pages.</p>



<p>By default, WordPress 6.8 applies a conservative prefetching strategy, balancing performance gains with resource efficiency. Developers can customize speculative loading behavior using new filters, since the API does not include UI-based controls. The existing <a href="https://wordpress.org/plugins/speculation-rules/">Speculative Loading feature plugin</a> will adapt to the core implementation, allowing deeper customization.&nbsp; Please test this feature in supported browsers (currently Chrome 108+ and Edge 108+, with more browsers evaluating) and provide feedback on <a href="https://core.trac.wordpress.org/ticket/62503">#62503</a> to help refine its implementation.</p>



<h3 class="wp-block-heading">Major security boost</h3>



<p>WordPress 6.8 will use bcrypt for password hashing, which <a href="https://make.wordpress.org/core/2025/02/17/wordpress-6-8-will-use-bcrypt-for-password-hashing/">significantly hardens WordPress.</a> Other hashing is getting hardened, too, throughout the security apparatus. You won’t have to change anything in your daily workflow.</p>



<p><strong>The features included in this first beta may change before the final release of WordPress 6.8, based on what testers like you find.</strong></p>



<p>Get an overview of the <a href="https://make.wordpress.org/core/6-8/">6.8 release cycle</a> and check the <a href="https://make.wordpress.org/core/">Make WordPress Core blog</a> for<a href="https://make.wordpress.org/core/tag/6-8/"> 6.8-related posts</a> in the next few weeks for further details.</p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading">Caveat on testing 6.8 Beta 1 in versions older than 5.1</h2>



<p>Due to an update made to the upgrade routine during this release, (see <a href="https://core.trac.wordpress.org/changeset/59803">r59803</a>), any upgrade from versions older than 5.1 will fail. Folks are working to resolve this specific issue, so please hold off on reporting on this while testing the Beta 1 release.</p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading">Vulnerability bounty doubles during Beta &amp; Release Candidate</h2>



<p>The WordPress community sponsors a <a href="https://make.wordpress.org/security/2024/02/12/welcoming-2024-with-wordpress-6-5-beta-1/">monetary reward for reporting new, unreleased security vulnerabilities</a>. This reward doubles during the period between Beta 1 on March 4, 2025 and the final Release Candidate (RC) scheduled for April 15, 2025.&nbsp; Please follow responsible disclosure practices as detailed in the project’s security practices and policies. You can find those on the <a href="https://hackerone.com/wordpress">HackerOne page</a> and in the <a href="https://wordpress.org/about/security/">security white paper</a>.</p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading">Just for you: a Beta 1 haiku</h2>



<p>March winds shift the tide.<br />Hands unite in open source;<br />WordPress moves ahead.</p>



<p class="has-text-align-right"> <em>Props to <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/audrasjb/" class="mention"><span class="mentions-prefix">@</span>audrasjb</a> <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/marybaum/" class="mention"><span class="mentions-prefix">@</span>marybaum</a> <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/mamaduka/" class="mention"><span class="mentions-prefix">@</span>mamaduka</a> <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/michelleames/" class="mention"><span class="mentions-prefix">@</span>michelleames</a> <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/bph/" class="mention"><span class="mentions-prefix">@</span>bph</a> <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/jorbin/" class="mention"><span class="mentions-prefix">@</span>jorbin</a> <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/joemcgill/" class="mention"><span class="mentions-prefix">@</span>joemcgill</a> <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/krupajnanda/" class="mention"><span class="mentions-prefix">@</span>krupajnanda</a> <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/desrosj/" class="mention"><span class="mentions-prefix">@</span>desrosj</a> <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/benjamin_zekavica/" class="mention"><span class="mentions-prefix">@</span>benjamin_zekavica</a> for reviewing and collaborating on this post!</em></p>";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Tue, 04 Mar 2025 17:09:45 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:12:"Jeffrey Paul";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:5;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:13:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:57:"Do The Woo Community: All Things CloudFest Hackathon 2025";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:28:"https://dothewoo.io/?p=92329";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:56:"https://dothewoo.io/all-things-cloudfest-hackathon-2025/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:210:"In this podcast episode, hosts and guests discuss the upcoming CloudFest Hackathon, focusing on project contributions, collaboration opportunities, and the engagement of first-time partners to enhance outcomes.";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Tue, 04 Mar 2025 15:46:26 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:5:"BobWP";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:6;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:13:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:26:"Matt: On Lenny’s Podcast";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:23:"https://ma.tt/?p=139675";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:37:"https://ma.tt/2025/03/lennys-podcast/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:1668:"<p>One of my must-read newsletters for the past several years has been <a href="https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/">Lenny&#8217;s Newsletter</a>, probably best known for its writing on growth and product management, which really means it covered everything you need to create a great company. </p>



<p>It expanded into a really well-done podcast; Lenny has always had a knack for finding the best guests and asking the best questions, so when he invited me on I was very excited.</p>



<p>He really wanted to address some of the things that people said I wasn&#8217;t being asked, so we do touch on the WP Engine / Silver Lake attacks, but we also covered a lot of my philosophy of why open source is important, philanthropy, and why you should build a movement, not just a product.</p>



<div class="wp-block-embed__wrapper">

</div>



<p>You can <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fves5chVZRA">watch it on YouTube</a>, or <a href="https://pca.st/episode/ebb90f87-32fb-4a11-9f6e-30e51296d3fb">listen to it on your favorite podcast app like Pocket Casts</a>.</p>



<p>Some others he has done that I really enjoyed are <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTr21kgCFF4">Nan Yu from Linear</a>, <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOGK1nlHdFo">Marc Benioff from Salesforce</a>, <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfEEcssu304">Katie Dill from Stripe</a>, <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDq6_CPaRjM">Mihika Kapoor from Figma</a>, <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egdYKLBswgk">Drew Houston from Dropbox</a>, and of course the famous <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ef0juAMqoE">Founder Mode one with Brian Chesky</a>.</p>";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Tue, 04 Mar 2025 14:19:50 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:4:"Matt";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:7;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:13:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:76:"Do The Woo Community: Marketing Strategies for Every Level of a Woo Business";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:43:"https://dothewoo.io/?post_type=blog&p=91945";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:80:"https://dothewoo.io/blog/marketing-strategies-for-every-level-of-a-woo-business/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:241:"Successful marketing strategies vary based on business stages. From solopreneurs to large firms, understanding owned, earned, and paid media, branding confidence, and purposeful engagement is essential for effective growth and communication.";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Tue, 04 Mar 2025 11:00:00 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:5:"BobWP";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:8;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:13:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:71:"Do The Woo Community: From Idea to WordPress Product with Derek Ashauer";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:28:"https://dothewoo.io/?p=91319";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:70:"https://dothewoo.io/from-idea-to-wordpress-product-with-derek-ashauer/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:217:"Mark Westguard chats with Derek Ashauer about his transition from client work to creating WordPress plugins, particularly focusing on his latest product, Conversion Bridge, designed for simplified conversion tracking.";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Mon, 03 Mar 2025 16:11:27 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:5:"BobWP";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:9;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:13:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:74:"Gravatar: How to Personalize Your Customer Onboarding for Better Retention";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:32:"http://blog.gravatar.com/?p=2545";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:66:"https://blog.gravatar.com/2025/02/28/customer-onboarding-strategy/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:21872:"<p>Getting your customer onboarding right can make the difference between long-term success and early user drop-off. But a generic approach won&#8217;t cut it – you need to personalize your message to keep users engaged and active.</p>



<p>Smart personalization strategies help users find value faster in your product. So, naturally, companies that tailor their onboarding see higher retention rates, increased feature adoption, and stronger customer relationships. Their users are more likely to become product champions and recommend the service to others.</p>



<p>And the numbers back this up. In <a href="https://business.adobe.com/content/dam/dx/us/en/resources/reports/the-business-impact-of-investing-in-experience-forrester-thought-leadership-paper-2021/the-business-impact-of-investing-in-experience-forrester-thought-leadership-paper-2021.pdf">research by Forrester</a>, businesses that have invested in building better customer and prospect experiences see up to 20% more improvement in customer retention and 25% in customer lifetime value compared to businesses that don’t.   </p>



<img width="1618" height="641" src="https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/study-results-personalized-experiences.png" alt="Comparing customer, revenue, and employee benefits between experience-driven companies and non-experience-driven companies" class="wp-image-2549" />



<p>This guide breaks down proven strategies to create personalized onboarding experiences that stick. From sign-up optimization to data-driven improvements, you&#8217;ll learn practical techniques to transform your onboarding into a powerful retention tool.</p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Step 1: Effortless sign-up process</strong></h2>



<p>A streamlined sign-up process sets the tone for your entire <a href="https://blog.gravatar.com/2024/09/06/onboarding-user-experience/">user experience</a>. The challenge? Balancing the need to collect essential user data while keeping friction low. Too many form fields can drive users away, while too few might limit your ability to personalize their experience.</p>



<p>Start by identifying the minimum information needed to provide value. For most products, this includes an email address, name, password, and their role or use case. Many companies ask for the company website and department, as well.&nbsp;</p>



<p>From the beginning of the process, you can use <a href="https://gravatar.com/">Gravatar</a> to help you out.&nbsp;</p>



<img width="2160" height="1140" src="https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/gravatar-paas-wordpress.png" alt="Gravatar – Profile as a Service " class="wp-image-2550" />



<p>For example, if you’re using WordPress to build your website, some level of Gravatar functionality will already be enabled. <a href="http://wordpress.org">WordPress.org</a> will automatically pull in user avatars, or <a href="https://blog.gravatar.com/2024/07/19/wordpress-profile-picture/">profile pictures</a>, connected to their Gravatar profiles.</p>



<img width="1744" height="946" src="https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/wordpress-org-gravatar-profile-picture.png" alt="Profile picture in WordPress.org" class="wp-image-2552" />



<p>However, you can extend this in a massive way, through the free <a href="https://wordpress.org/plugins/gravatar-enhanced/">Gravatar Enhanced plugin</a> to add features like the profile block, which is perfect for author pages and websites focused on creating a community. This block lets you automatically display user information pulled in from their profiles, such as their bio and verified links.&nbsp;</p>



<img width="660" height="377" src="https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/gravatar-profile-block.png?w=660" alt="Gravatar profile block" class="wp-image-2575" />



<p>Another option to integrate Gravatar on a deeper level is with the <a href="https://blog.gravatar.com/2024/06/03/profiles-as-a-service/">REST API</a> – and you can do this whether you’re on a WordPress website or not. This allows you to auto-populate user profiles instantly when someone signs up with their email address. This reduces manual data entry while still gathering rich profile information for personalization, which is especially effective with <a href="https://blog.gravatar.com/2024/10/08/saas-onboarding-checklist/">SaaS onboarding</a>.</p>



<a href="https://docs.gravatar.com/getting-started/"><img width="3242" height="729" src="https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/gravatar_integration_cta.png" alt="" class="wp-image-2632" /></a>



<p>What makes this a gamechanger is that all websites that integrate with Gravatar pull in information from a unified source, which allows you to create familiar experience for users across multiple platforms while reducing sign-up friction.</p>



<p>Want to take it further? Use progressive profiling:</p>



<ul class="wp-block-list">
<li>Collect essential information during sign-up.</li>



<li>Ask for additional details as users engage with specific features.</li>



<li>Use behavior patterns to build user profiles over time.</li>



<li>Allow users to import data from existing profiles.</li>
</ul>



<p>Remember to test different form variations with real users. Track completion rates and drop-off points to optimize the process continuously.</p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Step 2: Automated welcome email</strong></h2>



<p>The welcome email acts as your first direct communication with new users. It needs to accomplish several goals while remaining clear and engaging.&nbsp;</p>



<p>So, to make your welcome email effective, you need to first use an effective subject line. Here are some examples:&nbsp;</p>



<ul class="wp-block-list">
<li>&#8220;Welcome to [Product] – Here&#8217;s your next step&#8221;</li>



<li>&#8220;You&#8217;re in! Let&#8217;s get started with [Product]&#8221;</li>



<li>&#8220;[Name], welcome aboard! Your account is ready&#8221;</li>
</ul>



<p>If you’re not sure what to include, you can structure the email content like this:</p>



<ol class="wp-block-list">
<li>Start with a personal greeting using their name.&nbsp;</li>



<li>Confirm their account creation.&nbsp;</li>



<li>Highlight one clear next action.&nbsp;</li>



<li>Include essential links without overwhelming them.&nbsp;</li>
</ol>



<p>For example, this is the welcome email we send to our users when they create a Gravatar profile:&nbsp;</p>



<table class="has-fixed-layout"><tbody><tr><td>Hello!<strong>Your email now has a profile!</strong>There are two things you should know about Gravatar:<strong>Your email can introduce yourself</strong><br /><img width="976" height="480" class="wp-image-2553" src="https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/gravatar-profiles-across-different-websites.gif" alt="" /><br />Anytime you share your email, it’s like handing over a digital business card. Your Gravatar profile automatically appears on any Gravatar-enabled site, so you can feel at home instantly. Your avatar and identity follow you seamlessly across the web. Say goodbye to filling out profile forms all over the web.<br /><br /><strong>One link, all about you</strong><br /><img width="976" height="480" class="wp-image-2557" src="https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/gravatar-free-profile-website.png" alt="" /><br />Your Gravatar account comes with a free profile website.<br /><br />It’s a brief introduction of yourself and the perfect way to share where people can find you online. Customize the design and your profile URL. Simple. Make it yours!<br /><br />Any questions? You know where you can find us <img src="https://s0.wp.com/wp-content/mu-plugins/wpcom-smileys/twemoji/2/72x72/1f609.png" alt="😉" class="wp-smiley" /> &#8211; Ask us anything! Or just reply to this email.</td></tr></tbody></table>



<p><img src="https://s0.wp.com/wp-content/mu-plugins/wpcom-smileys/twemoji/2/72x72/2728.png" alt="✨" class="wp-smiley" /><strong>Pro tip:</strong><strong><em> </em></strong><em>With Gravatar integration, you can personalize the greeting with the user&#8217;s preferred name and include their profile image, making the email feel more personal and familiar.</em></p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Step 3: Follow-up email to initiate the onboarding process</strong></h2>



<p>Send this email 24-48 hours after the welcome message. Its purpose? Moving users from sign-up to actual engagement with your product.</p>



<p>A strong follow-up email includes:</p>



<ul class="wp-block-list">
<li>Recognition of whether they&#8217;ve logged in yet.</li>



<li>One specific action they can take right now.</li>



<li>Clear value proposition for that action.</li>



<li>Estimated time commitment.</li>
</ul>



<p>Here&#8217;s a tested template:</p>



<table class="has-fixed-layout"><tbody><tr><td><strong>Subject:</strong> Ready for your first [specific win] with [Product]?<br /><br />Hi [Name],<br /><br /><strong>Quick check-in:</strong> Have you had a chance to [specific action] yet?&nbsp;<br />It takes just 5 minutes to [achieve specific outcome]. Here&#8217;s how:<br /><br />1. Log in to your account<br />2. Click on [feature]<br />3. [Simple action step]<br /><br />Tip: Users who complete this step see [specific benefit] within [timeframe].<br />Need help? Reply to this email or book a quick call: [calendar link]</td></tr></tbody></table>



<p>Using Gravatar&#8217;s API, you can adapt this email based on the user&#8217;s professional background or location. For instance, customize examples and use cases that match their industry.</p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Step 4: Choosing the right onboarding strategy for your product</strong></h2>



<p>Selecting the right onboarding approach determines how effectively users will adopt your product. Let&#8217;s examine four proven strategies and when to use each one.</p>



<h3 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>One-on-one onboarding</strong></h3>



<p>Enterprise software with complex implementations demands personal attention. This high-touch approach works best for products with annual contract values above $10,000 or solutions requiring custom workflows. The direct interaction helps catch potential issues early and ensures users extract maximum value.</p>



<p>Tips for successful one-on-one onboarding:</p>



<ul class="wp-block-list">
<li>Record sessions for future reference.</li>



<li>Create custom agendas based on user roles.</li>



<li>Set clear milestones for each call.</li>



<li>Follow up with written summaries.</li>



<li>Track time to first value achievement.</li>



<li>Monitor customer satisfaction scores.</li>
</ul>



<h3 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Group onboarding</strong></h3>



<p>Mid-market solutions and team-based tools often benefit from group sessions. This approach builds community while efficiently onboarding multiple users who share similar needs. It&#8217;s particularly effective for products where users can learn from each other&#8217;s questions and use cases.</p>



<p>Keys to effective group onboarding:</p>



<ul class="wp-block-list">
<li>Segment sessions by industry or use case.</li>



<li>Keep groups small (5-8 participants).</li>



<li>Include hands-on exercises.</li>



<li>Encourage peer learning.</li>



<li>Schedule sessions across convenient time zones.</li>
</ul>



<h3 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Self-service onboarding</strong></h3>



<p>Products with straightforward features or tech-savvy user bases thrive with self-service onboarding. This approach scales efficiently for high-volume, lower-price products where personal attention isn&#8217;t cost-effective.</p>



<p>Essential self-service elements include:</p>



<ul class="wp-block-list">
<li>Interactive product tours.</li>



<li>Short video tutorials.</li>



<li>Progress tracking.</li>



<li>Clear success milestones.</li>



<li>Help documentation.</li>



<li>Chat support option.</li>
</ul>



<h3 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Hybrid approach</strong></h3>



<p>Many successful products combine multiple approaches. Use self-service for basic features, group sessions for advanced functionality, and one-on-one support for custom needs. This flexibility lets you match support levels to user needs and value.</p>



<p>Implementation strategies:</p>



<ul class="wp-block-list">
<li>Use data to trigger different support levels.</li>



<li>Monitor user progress automatically.</li>



<li>Offer easy ways to upgrade support.</li>



<li>Track which methods work best for different segments.</li>



<li>Adjust based on user feedback and engagement metrics.</li>
</ul>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Step 5: Setting initial goals and milestones</strong></h2>



<p>Setting clear goals with users creates momentum and drives engagement. The trick lies in balancing ambition with achievability – goals should stretch users while remaining within reach. Success starts by understanding what matters most to each user through direct conversations about the problems they&#8217;re trying to solve and their vision for the first 30 days.</p>



<p>Break larger objectives into manageable milestones. The first milestone should be achievable within 24-48 hours of signup, building confidence and showing immediate progress. Follow this with weekly targets for the first month, then transition to monthly milestones.</p>



<p>Simple gamification elements can boost motivation:</p>



<ul class="wp-block-list">
<li>Progress bars showing completion status.</li>



<li>Achievement badges for hitting milestones.</li>



<li>Team leaderboards for group implementations.</li>
</ul>



<p>Gravatar integration enhances this experience by displaying user avatars alongside achievements and in team views. This personalization makes the journey feel more engaging and tailored to each user.</p>



<p><strong><img src="https://s0.wp.com/wp-content/mu-plugins/wpcom-smileys/twemoji/2/72x72/2728.png" alt="✨" class="wp-smiley" />Tip:</strong> <em>Set up automated monitoring to flag when users struggle with specific milestones. This allows customer success teams to step in proactively with support. Stay flexible and adjust goals based on user feedback and behavior patterns.</em></p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Step 6: Strategies for personalized onboarding</strong></h2>



<p>Personalization transforms generic onboarding into targeted experiences that resonate with users. Advanced strategies go beyond basic segmentation, using real-time data and behavior patterns to adapt the experience for each user.</p>



<p>For example, you can use AI-driven paths to analyze user actions and modify the onboarding flow automatically. So, when a user struggles with a specific feature, the system can offer extra guidance or suggest alternative approaches. This dynamic adaptation ensures users get help exactly when they need it.</p>



<p>Integrating Gravatar adds another layer of personalization from the first interaction. The API provides valuable context about user roles and industries, allowing you to <a href="https://blog.gravatar.com/2024/08/16/user-experience-personalization/">customize the UI</a>,&nbsp; examples, and terminology accordingly. A developer might see technical implementation details, while a marketing professional receives analytics-focused guidance.</p>



<p>Micro-segmentation takes this further by combining behavioral data with profile insights. For example:</p>



<ul class="wp-block-list">
<li>Tailor feature introductions based on past product usage.</li>



<li>Adjust communication frequency by engagement levels.</li>



<li>Customize success metrics for different roles.</li>
</ul>



<p>Remember that <a href="https://blog.gravatar.com/2024/09/03/app-onboarding/">in-app guidance</a> should feel natural and contextual. Rather than overwhelming users with information, show relevant tips when they&#8217;re most likely to need them. This might mean highlighting advanced features only after users master basics or suggesting integrations when usage patterns indicate they&#8217;d be valuable.</p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Step 7: Provide access to a detailed knowledge base</strong></h2>



<p>An effective knowledge base empowers users to find answers on their own terms. Rather than forcing users to contact support for every question, good documentation lets them solve problems at their own pace.</p>



<p>Here’s what we recommend:&nbsp;</p>



<ul class="wp-block-list">
<li>Build your knowledge base around user needs, not product features.&nbsp;</li>



<li>Start with common questions and problems users face during onboarding.&nbsp;</li>



<li>Structure content in a logical flow that matches the user&#8217;s learning curve – from basic setup to advanced features.</li>
</ul>



<p>Video tutorials and interactive guides complement written documentation. Short screencast tutorials work well for showing complex processes, while step-by-step guides help users implement specific features. Keep videos brief and focused on single tasks.</p>



<p>AI-powered search helps users find relevant information quickly. Smart categorization and related article suggestions guide users to helpful resources they might have missed. Think of your knowledge base as a living document and update it based on common support tickets, user feedback, product updates, and usage analytics.&nbsp;</p>



<p>Finally, track which articles users read most and where they spend time. This data reveals gaps in documentation and helps prioritize future content creation.</p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Step 8: Strategies for checking in with customers</strong></h2>



<p>Regular check-ins help spot potential issues before they become problems. The best check-ins feel natural, not forced, and happen at moments that matter to users.</p>



<p>The best strategy is combining automated and personal outreach based on user behavior. After major milestones, send congratulatory messages with tips for the next steps. If usage drops suddenly, trigger a friendly check-in to offer help. Schedule more detailed reviews after the first week and first month to ensure users stay on track.</p>



<p>Personal check-ins should focus on learning, not just status updates. Ask specific questions about their experience and goals. For example: &#8220;Has [feature] helped with [specific goal] yet?&#8221; or &#8220;What&#8217;s been the biggest challenge so far?&#8221; These conversations often reveal valuable insights about user needs.</p>



<p>You also should have either a live chat option, email support, and/or video calls because they each serve different purposes. Quick questions work well in chat, while video calls help build relationships and tackle complex issues. Use email to share resources and document action items.</p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Step 9: Iterate based on feedback</strong></h2>



<p>Feedback drives improvement, but only if you act on it systematically. Collect both quantitative data (usage statistics, completion rates) and qualitative insights (user interviews, survey responses) to build a complete picture.</p>



<ul class="wp-block-list">
<li><strong>Create feedback loops at every stage of onboarding.</strong> Short in-app surveys capture immediate reactions, while detailed questionnaires after key milestones provide deeper insights. User interviews reveal nuances that numbers alone might miss.</li>



<li><strong>Take action quickly on clear pain points.</strong> If multiple users struggle with the same step, examine it closely. Sometimes, small tweaks, like clearer instructions or simplified workflows, make a big difference. Share improvements with users who provided feedback – it shows you value their input.</li>



<li><strong>Build a systematic approach to evaluating and implementing changes:</strong>
<ul class="wp-block-list">
<li>Analyze feedback patterns</li>



<li>Prioritize high-impact changes</li>



<li>Test solutions with small user groups</li>



<li>Monitor results before rolling out widely</li>
</ul>
</li>
</ul>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Enhance your onboarding with Gravatar&#8217;s developer API</strong></h2>



<p>A strong onboarding process keeps users engaged and helps them find value quickly in your service. By integrating Gravatar&#8217;s developer API, you can create a more personalized, friction-free experience from the first interaction.</p>



<p>Think about your sign-up process. Instead of asking users to fill out multiple fields or upload profile pictures, Gravatar automatically populates this information. Users who already have Gravatar profiles – and there are millions – get a faster, more familiar experience across platforms.</p>



<p>The API opens up creative possibilities beyond basic profile data. Use it to:</p>



<ul class="wp-block-list">
<li>Create personalized welcome screens.</li>



<li>Show relevant examples based on user industries.</li>



<li>Build community features with consistent user identities.</li>



<li>Maintain professional profiles across multiple services.</li>
</ul>



<p>Major platforms like WordPress and Slack already use Gravatar to streamline their onboarding, so what are you waiting for?&nbsp;</p>



<p><a href="https://en.gravatar.com/site/implement/">Check out Gravatar&#8217;s developer documentation</a> to see how easy integration can be. Focus on creating those meaningful first interactions that turn new signups into long-term users.</p>



<a href="https://docs.gravatar.com/getting-started/"><img width="3242" height="729" src="https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/gravatar_integration_cta.png" alt="" class="wp-image-2632" /></a>";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Fri, 28 Feb 2025 16:28:51 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:11:"Ronnie Burt";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:10;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:13:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:57:"Gravatar: Essential Tips for an Effective Email Signature";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:32:"http://blog.gravatar.com/?p=2673";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:72:"https://blog.gravatar.com/2025/02/28/what-to-include-in-email-signature/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:15603:"<p>Creating an effective email signature takes more thought than you might expect. Yes, it&#8217;s just a small block of text at the bottom of your emails – but it&#8217;s also a powerful tool for making memorable connections and building your professional reputation.</p>



<p>This is especially important if you&#8217;re reaching out to potential clients, applying for jobs, or trying to grow your network. Your signature can be the difference between someone remembering you or your message getting lost in their inbox.</p>



<p>But here&#8217;s the challenge: <strong>Finding the right balance</strong>. Add too little information and recipients won&#8217;t know enough about you. Add too much, and your signature becomes cluttered, potentially making your emails look unprofessional or even spammy.  </p>



<p>Let&#8217;s explore how to craft an email signature that makes an impact, including a smart strategy for sharing more about yourself without overwhelming your recipients.</p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Checklist of elements to consider in your email signature</strong></h2>



<p>Before diving into specific elements, remember this: You don&#8217;t need to include everything listed below. In fact, that would be counterproductive. Pick the elements that matter most for your professional goals and match your <a href="https://blog.gravatar.com/2024/04/10/personal-branding-tools/">personal brand</a>. And as you&#8217;ll see later,linking to an online profile, such as your <a href="https://gravatar.com/">Gravatar</a>, is a smart way to share additional information without cramming it all into your signature.</p>



<p>Here are the essential elements to consider:</p>



<ul class="wp-block-list">
<li><strong>Name and title: </strong>Format as &#8220;Name, Title&#8221; for quick scanning. This is non-negotiable – it&#8217;s the foundation of your signature.</li>



<li><strong>Basic contact details: </strong>Include your primary phone number and email address. If you need multiple numbers, use standard notation: (o) for office, (m) for mobile.</li>



<li><strong>Company information: </strong>Add your company name and department if relevant. For freelancers, your business name or professional title works well.</li>



<li><strong>Visual elements:</strong> A small professional headshot or company logo can increase recognition. But keep it modest – aim for subtlety rather than flash.</li>



<li><strong>Social proof: </strong>Choose 2-3 relevant professional profiles. <a href="https://www.linkedin.com/">LinkedIn</a> is often essential, while other choices depend on your field. A portfolio site works well for creatives, while <a href="https://github.com/">GitHub</a> is a must for developers. And of course, if you need a versatile profile platform that can display a wide range of information, links, and media, all in a compact design, then a Gravatar profile is a must.&nbsp;</li>
</ul>



<p>Now, besides these basic elements, there are also some practical additions that would vary based on your needs:</p>



<ul class="wp-block-list">
<li>Calendar booking link if you schedule lots of meetings.</li>



<li>Industry certifications for specialized fields.</li>



<li>Office location or timezone for global teams.</li>



<li>Languages spoken for international work.</li>



<li>Pronouns for inclusive communication.</li>



<li>Legal disclaimers if required by your industry.</li>
</ul>



<p>Remember: <strong>White space is your friend</strong>. A clean, readable signature beats an overcrowded one every time.</p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Design Tips to make your email signature stand out</strong></h2>



<p>Email signatures need precise design choices to look professional across different devices and email clients. Here&#8217;s how to create one that works everywhere:</p>



<p><strong>Size guidelines that prevent problems:</strong></p>



<ul class="wp-block-list">
<li>Keep the total width under 600px – this ensures your signature displays correctly on mobile devices.</li>



<li>Limit height to 150 or 200px maximum to avoid overwhelming your message.</li>



<li>Size company logos at 100x50px.</li>



<li>Set headshots to 80x80px square.</li>



<li>Leave 10px minimum spacing between elements.</li>
</ul>



<p><strong>Typography and formatting:</strong></p>



<ul class="wp-block-list">
<li>Set your name in 14-16px font size – it should be instantly noticeable.</li>



<li>Use 11-12px for contact details and other information.</li>



<li>Stick to standard, professional fonts like Arial or Helvetica.</li>



<li>Pick two brand colors at most, plus black or gray for text.</li>



<li>Organize information in order of importance.</li>



<li>Use simple separators like pipes ( | ) between elements.</li>
</ul>



<p><strong>Technical requirements to prevent display issues:</strong></p>



<ul class="wp-block-list">
<li>Apply inline CSS to maintain consistent formatting.</li>



<li>Structure elements to stack properly on mobile screens.</li>



<li>Test your signature in major email clients (<a href="https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-365/outlook/email-and-calendar-software-microsoft-outlook">Outlook</a>, <a href="https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/">Gmail</a>, <a href="https://www.icloud.com/mail/">Apple Mail</a>).</li>



<li>Compress images under 40KB to ensure quick loading.</li>
</ul>



<p>Hierarchy matters – put your most important information first. Think about what your recipient needs to know right away versus what can go below. A clear structure with proper spacing helps readers find what they need quickly.</p>



<h3 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Examples of well-designed email signatures</strong></h3>



<p>To help you get inspired, here are some interesting templates from <a href="https://www.canva.com/search?q=email+signature">Canva</a> that really capture what makes a great email signature.&nbsp;</p>



<ul class="wp-block-list">
<li>Minimalistic signature without a headshot:&nbsp;</li>
</ul>



<img width="660" height="330" src="https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/black-white-minimalist-personal-professional-email-signature.png?w=660" alt="Example of a minimalistic email signature for a manager" class="wp-image-2676" />



<ul class="wp-block-list">
<li>Elegant signature with a photo:&nbsp;</li>
</ul>



<img width="660" height="330" src="https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/white-simple-real-estate-business-email-signature.png?w=660" alt="Example of a simplistic email signature for a real estate agent " class="wp-image-2677" />



<ul class="wp-block-list">
<li>Another design for a real estate agent with a cover photo.&nbsp;</li>
</ul>



<img width="660" height="330" src="https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/black-and-yellow-elegant-realtor-email-signature.png?w=660" alt="Example of an email signature for a real estate agent with a cover photo" class="wp-image-2678" />



<ul class="wp-block-list">
<li>A very unique approach for a graphic designer, allowing them to show their creativity even through their email signature.&nbsp;</li>
</ul>



<img width="660" height="330" src="https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/orange-green-gradient-creative-graphic-designer-email-signature.png?w=660" alt="Example of an email signature for a graphic designer" class="wp-image-2680" />



<h3 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Automating design with an email signature generator</strong></h3>



<p>While working with a designer gives you the most polished results, email signature generators offer a practical starting point. These tools handle the technical details and help you create something professional without diving into HTML or CSS.</p>



<p>Here are some reliable options:</p>



<h4 class="wp-block-heading"><a href="https://www.hubspot.com/email-signature-generator"><strong>HubSpot Email Signature Generator (Free)</strong></a></h4>



<img width="660" height="404" src="https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/hubspot-email-signature-generator.png?w=660" alt="Hubspot email signature generator" class="wp-image-2681" />



<ul class="wp-block-list">
<li>Provides clean, professional templates.</li>



<li>Easy to customize colors and layout.</li>



<li>Exports HTML code you can copy directly.</li>



<li>No account required.</li>
</ul>



<h4 class="wp-block-heading"><a href="https://www.wisestamp.com/"><strong>WiseStamp</strong></a></h4>



<img width="660" height="391" src="https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/wisestamp-email-signature-generator.png?w=660" alt="WiseStamp email signature generator" class="wp-image-2682" />



<ul class="wp-block-list">
<li>Offers multiple professional templates.</li>



<li>Integrates with major email clients.</li>



<li>Includes advanced features like banners.</li>



<li>Paid plans start at $5.80/month.</li>



<li>Also offers an email signature management service.&nbsp;</li>
</ul>



<h4 class="wp-block-heading"><a href="https://newoldstamp.com/"><strong>NewOldStamp</strong></a></h4>



<img width="660" height="355" src="https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/newoldstamp-graphbic.png?w=660" alt="NewOldStamp homepage" class="wp-image-2683" />



<ul class="wp-block-list">
<li>Built for teams and companies.</li>



<li>Manages signatures across departments.</li>



<li>Ensures brand consistency.</li>



<li>Team pricing available.</li>
</ul>



<h4 class="wp-block-heading"><a href="https://www.canva.com/"><strong>Canva</strong></a></h4>



<img width="660" height="455" src="https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/canva-brand-kit.png?w=660" alt="Example of a Canva editor with the brand kit feature" class="wp-image-2679" />



<ul class="wp-block-list">
<li>A wide variety of email signature templates.&nbsp;</li>



<li>Interesting graphics and design tools.&nbsp;</li>



<li>An AI writing and design tool for the PRO version.&nbsp;</li>



<li>Versatile applications – use it for marketing campaigns, social media, blog posts, etc.&nbsp;</li>



<li>Lets you create a brand kit to use on all your visuals.&nbsp;</li>
</ul>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Why you should link to your Gravatar profile for more impact</strong></h2>



<img width="660" height="457" src="https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/ronnie-gravatar-profile.png?w=660" alt="Ronnie Burt’s Gravatar profile" class="wp-image-2684" />



<p>An email signature has limited space, but your <a href="https://gravatar.com/profile">Gravatar profile</a> can showcase everything about your professional identity, just like a <a href="https://blog.gravatar.com/2024/11/08/creating-a-digital-business-card/">dynamic business card</a>. Think of it as an extension of your signature – one that updates automatically across all platforms where you use your email.</p>



<p>Your Gravatar profile becomes a comprehensive hub for:</p>



<ul class="wp-block-list">
<li>Professional background and accomplishments.</li>



<li>Portfolio pieces and project highlights.</li>



<li>Complete set of social media profiles.</li>



<li>Full contact information.</li>



<li>Recent blog posts or updates.</li>



<li>Speaking engagements or events.</li>
</ul>



<p>The magic happens in the synchronization. Update your Gravatar profile once, and those changes appear everywhere your email is used – including past emails. No need to update multiple signatures or worry about outdated information floating around.</p>



<p>This approach solves a common problem: Keeping professional information current across platforms. A hiring manager might find your year-old email with an outdated job title, but clicking your Gravatar link shows them your current role and achievements.</p>



<a href="https://gravatar.com/connect/?gravatar_from=blog"><img width="3243" height="729" src="https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/free_profile_cta.png" alt="" class="wp-image-2616" /></a>



<h3 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Crafting CTAs to your Gravatar profile in your email signature</strong></h3>



<p>One option is to add the Gravatar icon to your email signature as you would for any other online profile. This works well, though as Gravatar can be used for a wide range of purposes it might not give your recipients enough context about what they’ll find when they open it. Another option is to link to your Gravatar profile with clear, action-oriented text that hints at the value:</p>



<ul class="wp-block-list">
<li>&#8220;See my complete portfolio and background.&#8221;</li>



<li>&#8220;Find my latest projects and contact info.&#8221;</li>



<li>&#8220;Connect with me professionally.&#8221;</li>



<li>&#8220;View my full professional profile.&#8221;</li>
</ul>



<p>Match your CTA to your goals. If you&#8217;re job hunting, emphasize your portfolio. For networking, focus on connection opportunities. The right CTA tells recipients exactly what they&#8217;ll gain by clicking through.</p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Create an effective email signature with the help of Gravatar</strong></h2>



<p>Gravatar actually makes it super easy. Just login to your profile editor, copy your email signature code, and paste it in. </p>



<img width="2086" height="970" src="https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/02/cleanshot-2025-02-18-at-12.24.39402x.png" alt="" class="wp-image-2932" />



<p><strong>Here’s how:</strong></p>



<ul class="wp-block-list">
<li>Head to&nbsp;<a href="http://gravatar.com/profile">gravatar.com/profile</a></li>



<li>click on&nbsp;<strong><em>Email signature</em></strong>&nbsp;in the bottom left</li>



<li>grab the code and paste it into Gmail or your email client</li>
</ul>



<p>Check out our&nbsp;<a href="https://support.gravatar.com/your-profile/email-signature/">quick setup guides</a>&nbsp;for Gmail, Apple Mail, and other popular email tools.</p>



<p>Email signatures perform a delicate balancing act. Add too much information, and you risk looking unprofessional. Add too little and recipients miss important context about who you are.</p>



<p>Linking to a Gravatar profile offers an elegant solution. Your email signature stays clean and focused, while still giving recipients access to everything they might want to know about you. Plus, you never have to worry about outdated information lingering in old emails – your Gravatar profile updates everywhere, automatically.</p>



<p>Here&#8217;s what makes this approach particularly effective:</p>



<ul class="wp-block-list">
<li>Recipients get a complete picture of your professional identity.</li>



<li>Your signature stays concise and professional.</li>



<li>Information stays current without manual updates.</li>



<li>Old emails maintain their relevance.</li>



<li>You control how much information to share.</li>
</ul>



<p>A well-crafted email signature paired with a Gravatar profile helps you make stronger professional connections. Recipients can learn exactly what they need about you, whether that&#8217;s your latest work, professional background, or preferred contact methods.</p>



<p>Ready to enhance your email signature? <a href="https://gravatar.com/profile">Create your free Gravatar profile </a>and start building a more effective professional presence.</p>



<a href="https://gravatar.com/connect/?gravatar_from=blog"><img width="3243" height="729" src="https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/free_profile_cta.png" alt="" class="wp-image-2616" /></a>";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Fri, 28 Feb 2025 16:27:08 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:11:"Ronnie Burt";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:11;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:13:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:55:"Do The Woo Community: WordCamp Asia 2025 Photo Memories";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:43:"https://dothewoo.io/?post_type=blog&p=91875";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:59:"https://dothewoo.io/blog/wordcamp-asia-2025-photo-memories/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:160:"Well this year I had the opportunity to take just a few more photos despite being incredibly busy with the booth. So as they say, a picture is a thousand words.";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Fri, 28 Feb 2025 13:22:52 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:5:"BobWP";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:12;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:13:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"bbPress: bbPress 2.6.12 is out!";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:29:"https://bbpress.org/?p=243415";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:55:"https://bbpress.org/blog/2025/02/bbpress-2-6-12-is-out/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:1535:"<p>bbPress 2.6.12 is a <strong>minor</strong> release that fixes <em>1 security issue</em> and <a href="https://bbpress.trac.wordpress.org/query?status=closed&milestone=2.6.12">1 small bug</a>.</p>



<p>The security issue was responsibly disclosed via the <a href="https://hackerone.com/wordpress">WordPress HackerOne bounty program</a>. It does not appear to be actively exploited, and specifically targets: single-site WordPress installations, newer than 5.3.0, with the &#8220;Membership&#8221; setting set to &#8220;Anyone can register&#8221;, and with bbPress active.</p>



<p><em>(Even if that isn&#8217;t you, you should still update bbPress to 2.6.12 anyways!)</em></p>



<p>The minor bug was a regression to the search component introduced in 2.6.11, causing search results to not be as accurate as everyone deserves for them to be. <img src="https://s.w.org/images/core/emoji/15.0.3/72x72/1f575.png" alt="🕵" class="wp-smiley" /></p>



<p>Both of these fixes are already merged into the 2.7 development branch.</p>



<p>Thank you to <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/gdragon/"></a><a href="https://bbpress.trac.wordpress.org/query?status=!closed&reporter=GDragoN">GDragoN</a> and mungah (via HackerOne) for your help fixing bugs, and <a href="https://bbpress.org/forums/profile/robin-w/">Robin W</a> for keeping the bbPress.org Forums squeaky clean and well-supported! I really appreciate all of y&#8217;all! <img src="https://s.w.org/images/core/emoji/15.0.3/72x72/1f41d.png" alt="🐝" class="wp-smiley" /></p>";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Wed, 26 Feb 2025 19:40:24 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:17:"John James Jacoby";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:13;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:13:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:78:"WPTavern: #158 – John Overall on How Podcasting Shaped His WordPress Journey";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:48:"https://wptavern.com/?post_type=podcast&p=187567";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:92:"https://wptavern.com/podcast/158-john-overall-on-how-podcasting-shaped-his-wordpress-journey";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:48337:"Transcript<div>
<p>[00:00:00] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Welcome to the Jukebox Podcast from WP Tavern. My name is Nathan Wrigley Jukebox is a podcast which is dedicated to all things WordPress. The people, the events, the plugins, the blocks, the themes, and in this case, how podcasting shaped our guests WordPress journey.</p>



<p>If you&#8217;d like to subscribe to the podcast, you can do that by searching for WP Tavern in your podcast player of choice, or by going to wptavern.com/feed/podcast, and you can copy that URL into most podcast players.</p>



<p>If you have a topic that you&#8217;d like us to feature on the podcast, I&#8217;m keen to hear from you and hopefully get you, or your idea, featured on the show. Head to wptavern.com/contact/jukebox and use the form there.</p>



<p>[00:01:11] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> So on the podcast today, we have John Overall. John is a veteran in the WordPress podcasting world, bringing over 16 years of experience with the WP Plugins A to Z show. He&#8217;s an early adopter of WordPress, and has seen the platform evolve and grow, and has built a wealth of knowledge around plugins, which he thinks have been pivotal to WordPress&#8217;s versatility.</p>



<p>John shares his journey into the world of podcasting, initially using it as a tool to grow his business, and expand his expertise within the WordPress ecosystem. He gets into how the podcast landscape has shifted from its early days to the present, with technological advances making it easier than ever to produce and distribute shows.</p>



<p>We talk about the evolution of WordPress plugins, how they have shaped the WordPress platform over the years, and John&#8217;s unique approach to managing and understanding these powerful tools, making a podcast to help him better understand what each plugin does.</p>



<p>John also shares stories about his interactions with his audience, and how the podcast has forged connections that might not be the norm for client relationships.</p>



<p>We move into the ever changing WordPress environment, and John shares predictions and insights about the platform&#8217;s future, and how he&#8217;s using podcasting as a medium to continually learn and adapt, which in turn benefits his audience.</p>



<p>Something new for John is how he&#8217;s involving his family in his podcasting journey. His daughter has breathed new life and perspectives into the show, hoping to appeal to a younger generation while retaining his loyal audience.</p>



<p>If you&#8217;re passionate about WordPress, podcasting, or just interested in understanding a holistic approach to long-term content creation and audience engagement, this episode is for you.</p>



<p>If you&#8217;re interested in finding out more, you can find all of the links in the show notes by heading to wptavern.com/podcast, where you&#8217;ll find all the other episodes as well.</p>



<p>And so without further delay, I bring you John Overall.</p>



<p>I am joined on the podcast by John Overall, how are you doing?</p>



<p>[00:03:20] <strong>John Overall:</strong> I am doing fantastic, thanks Nathan. I appreciate being on your show.</p>



<p>[00:03:24] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> I am really pleased to have John. I want to call you Jonathan. Is there a time when you were a Jonathan or have I just misremembered?</p>



<p>[00:03:31] <strong>John Overall:</strong> No, no, I&#8217;ve been called Jonathan, Johnny, Johnny Boy. I answer to all kinds of names. My mom actually calls me Alan because she refuses to call me John.</p>



<p>[00:03:40] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Well, it&#8217;s an absolute pleasure having you on the podcast today.</p>



<p>Very frequently when I interview people, people tell me that they&#8217;ve listened to my podcast and I find that really, I get quite emotional when people do that, I think that&#8217;s lovely. But the tables are turned, because today I&#8217;m here to say that I have listened to Jonathan&#8217;s podcast many, many times in the past.</p>



<p>And I was just saying that there was a period of time in my life when my children went to music lessons. And I used to accompany them to those music lessons, and I had to sit in the, if you call it like a waiting room, basically. Every week I would sit there faithfully listening to your plugin podcast, you know, it was the, we call it A to Z, but you call it A to Z. And I would listen to you talking about plugins, and giving them ratings and what have you with your co-host. And so this is a bit of a stars in my eyes moment. I&#8217;m so pleased to have you on the podcast.</p>



<p>[00:04:31] <strong>John Overall:</strong> Well, I appreciate that. And yeah, the WP Plugins A to Z, and we do call it Z here in Canada. But when I had my American co-host in the beginning years, he called it Z. So we used to argue with it. And then we actually have someone, our intro, one of my listeners, he recorded it, and we have a minor intro that says, it&#8217;s WP Plugins, A to Z, not Z. It&#8217;s still something we use. It was generated years ago by one of the listeners. But yeah, it&#8217;s been a longstanding show. It&#8217;s been around for over 16 years now.</p>



<p>[00:05:00] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> So I really didn&#8217;t know that podcasts were a thing. And podcasts came into my life at the moment when mobile phones had apps that could do that. I didn&#8217;t listen to them on desktop or anything like that. And it was always for me, a bit of dead time. I wouldn&#8217;t listen to them in the car or anything like that. I would always listen to them in a moment where I was sat in a chair and had nothing else to pay attention to. And I just found them immediately really, really important in my life.</p>



<p>And then I found WordPress. And then quickly found a bunch of podcasts which I listened to, and yours was the one that somehow settled in my brain as the, I&#8217;m going to music now, I&#8217;m going to sit for half an hour and consume the podcast.</p>



<p>And really, without listening to podcasts like yours, my life would&#8217;ve been very different, I think. Because it occurred to me that, as I was listening to you and your co-host talk, I got a sense of, well, you&#8217;re not a media personality. You are not somebody who is sitting in some sort of CNN type studio producing content. You are a guy that does the kind of job that I do. And I got a real sense of, gosh, maybe this is something that I could explore at some point. And there we go, and the rest is history. That&#8217;s now all I&#8217;ve done for many years.</p>



<p>[00:06:07] <strong>John Overall:</strong> Well I will gladly take the credit for expanding podcasting. I&#8217;ve enjoyed podcasting since the beginning. I discovered it as I graduated from my applied communication program at college, which led me into the internet. And it was shortly after that that we saw the rise of it. And of course, Adam Curry from the No Agenda Show, who is known as the Pod Father, he created podcasting as it stands today with the RSS feeds.</p>



<p>And he&#8217;s even ensured that it&#8217;s going to stay a free and open source platform due to the now existing podcasting index. Which is where everybody gets that in their newfangled apps. Like I quit using the apps from the Apple store for my podcast. I use the newer apps, because they do a much better job and they go into the podcast and index for everything.</p>



<p>So, yeah, it&#8217;s really great. And the nice thing is, what it did was allowed me, with WordPress in particular, was to expand my knowledge. Because I used it to build my knowledge. I saw WordPress and what it was doing with the plugins. Because in the beginning, WordPress was great for a blogging platform. I started using it probably about version two, so they were like two, maybe two and a half years old when I discovered WordPress.</p>



<p>I&#8217;d seen it once before when it first came out, and one of my clients put it on my server and I almost banned it from my server because its use of resources was ridiculous. It was literally crashing one of my servers. But I ended up working with it, and it kept getting better and better and better. And then when they introduced the plugins to it, to expand it into a full CMS, I went, oh dear God, this is going to be huge.</p>



<p>And I&#8217;ve watched it as it climbed from like, I went back recently to look at my first episodes. My first episode there was less than 9,000 plugins available for WordPress. I watched it grow and grow and grow and grow. And now there&#8217;s over, hundreds of thousands of plugins. The WordPress repository has only 50,000. At one point they had 90,000, so they&#8217;ve cleaned out a big mess, it has expanded it, and it&#8217;s going to take, you know, WordPress is going into, it&#8217;s in a changing mode right now.</p>



<p>WordPress is in a massive flux right now, with all the things that have occurred in the last six months. But many people have been panicking, oh my God, It&#8217;s going to go away. It&#8217;s like, no, it&#8217;s not going anywhere. It&#8217;s going to change, and a lot of things are going to be different, but there&#8217;s too many people in the world making a living, depending upon their daily bread, their monthly rents, having WordPress fully functioning. And there&#8217;s companies that are as big as Automattic, if not bigger, that are using WordPress.</p>



<p>I was reading an article yesterday of the top 12 websites built in WordPress. We&#8217;re talking NASA, The Times magazine, well, we know whitehouse.gov is using it. And you look at them and some of them are just insanely developed. And if it wasn&#8217;t for the plugin capability of WordPress, it wouldn&#8217;t be possible.</p>



<p>[00:08:52] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> When you look back over all those years, so rewind until, let&#8217;s say the month, the year before you began your podcast journey, what was the thing that kicked you into doing podcasting? Was it just like a bit of serendipity? Did you know that you wanted to create audio content or was it just a bit of an accident?</p>



<p>[00:09:09] <strong>John Overall:</strong> It was a bit of everything. What it really was, was I was just starting, I had just sold my computer store, so I was working off of money from selling a successful sale of a computer store I had for several years. Because I sold out the computer industry just before it went full mobile and impossible to really make a living with a computer store. And I was going back to the internet and developing websites and I was exploring things.</p>



<p>I looked at Drupal, Joomla and WordPress, trying to figure out what would be the best CMS system so I wouldn&#8217;t have to write PHP code, and CSS by hand anymore, or at least minimise it. And I needed a way to reach people. And one of the ways, podcasts was just starting to pick up at that time, that was somewhere around 2010, 2011, right around there. And it was just starting to pick up, and I realised, wait a minute, people are listening to the podcast. I can start putting out a podcast and I can focus. And I looked at WordPress and I realised, you know, what would be the best component to focus on in WordPress?</p>



<p>And so I chose plugins. And I went, okay, well I needed a domain. I went, WP Plugins, well, A to Z. And I had this really crazy idea at the beginning, because there was so few plugins, I was going to cover WordPress plugins, literally from A to Z. My first 20 episodes was A, B, C, D plugins starting with those letters. I got that far into it and I went, okay, this ain&#8217;t going to work, there&#8217;s no way.</p>



<p>And people were adding them at a continuous rate every week. And I went, okay, this isn&#8217;t going to work, but it still constitutes, the name constituted everything. So I just started diving into what I thought was the best plugins, or if I used the plugin and I thought wasn&#8217;t very good, it was a way to warn people, please, avoid this plugin. Don&#8217;t make my mistake.</p>



<p>So it was all of those things. So it was a little bit of serendipity, but what I was more after was growing my business. And it literally did grow my business for several years. I would suddenly get a call, or an email from people, because I put my email and everything into the shows. I would get emails from listeners saying, hey, I&#8217;ve been listening to your show for several months and I&#8217;m having this WordPress problem, and you talked about it. Can you fix it? And I said, well, hold on, let&#8217;s see what we can do.</p>



<p>And so I still have six or seven clients from those early years, that have been clients ever since they came to me. And they came to me because, when people listen to you on podcasts they begin to trust you. They start to feel like they know who you are, because they&#8217;ve been listening to you. You&#8217;re a friend, you&#8217;re not a stranger. And because of that, what happens, I had people, they would contact me and I asked them for, I&#8217;m really cautious about what information I get from my clients to access their stuff, their hosting or whatever. And I get people and I ask them for this, and all of a sudden they&#8217;ve given me all of their keys to their castle. And they have no idea who I am. They don&#8217;t know if I&#8217;m trustworthy of that, but I&#8217;ve built that trust by the way they&#8217;ve heard me talk over the however period of time, months or years they&#8217;ve listened to my show.</p>



<p>[00:11:55] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> It is interesting because from your perspective, you haven&#8217;t given out any metric which might be a measure of trust, but you have. You really have. I mean, giving that much time and putting out your thoughts, and speaking like you speak, and talking like you talk, and the language that you use, and the way that you present yourself, it does lend trust.</p>



<p>And it is very, very similar with the podcasts that I listen to, dozens that I listen to each week. And I really do get a feeling that I know these people. I never thought of using a podcast as a marketing tool to be honest. But I do remember the sort of bits that you would drop in, and I thought, yeah, that was kind of interesting.</p>



<p>Yeah, perfect, it ended up creating new business, not just a bit of fun that you had to crowbar into each week.</p>



<p>[00:12:38] <strong>John Overall:</strong> It literally helped build my business, and it made it successful to sustain me for many years. And that&#8217;s what I&#8217;ve enjoyed. That&#8217;s part of what I&#8217;ve enjoyed about it.</p>



<p>The other is, I got to meet lots of people virtually, all over the globe. In addition to the, well, we&#8217;re going to do episode 642 next week, and in addition to those episodes for just the WP plugins, I did interview shows, which were a separate episode. And I&#8217;ve done over 150 of those over the years.</p>



<p>Plus I&#8217;ve also had three or four other podcasts, I kept thinking I was going to start different podcasts for different things, and I&#8217;d get maybe 20, 30, 100, 200 episodes into them, and then that&#8217;s like, okay, I don&#8217;t have time for these ones anymore, and they just fall by the wayside. In total I&#8217;ve probably got 2000 episodes of podcasts behind me for various podcasts.</p>



<p>[00:13:23] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> You really are a veteran of this industry. How has it changed? Just for those of us who are podcasting nowadays, it&#8217;s so simple. There&#8217;s a tool for everything. There&#8217;s a SaaS platform for everything. You can pay your monthly subscription, and it&#8217;ll more or less podcast for you really. But back in the day, when I started there were definite hurdles, but you were many, many years before me. So I&#8217;m imagining there was lots of hurdles to overcome just to get the thing out there.</p>



<p>[00:13:49] <strong>John Overall:</strong> In the beginning it was really hard, especially if you had a host, a co-host. It&#8217;s like we didn&#8217;t have the easy software like we&#8217;re using right now for recording back and forth. Even now, I don&#8217;t use this software for doing mine. I use Microsoft Teams for recording with my co-host. But in the beginning we had, oh, what the heck was it called?</p>



<p>[00:14:08] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> I&#8217;ll tell you what I used at the beginning and this will kind of date me. I used Skype.</p>



<p>[00:14:13] <strong>John Overall:</strong> That&#8217;s it.</p>



<p>[00:14:13] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> That was it.</p>



<p>[00:14:14] <strong>John Overall:</strong> That was it? Skype? I was trying to remember what it was. It still loads on my computer when I reboot my computer and I have to shut it off because I just haven&#8217;t got around to, well, I haven&#8217;t rebuilt my computer for almost 10 years. I&#8217;m getting a new one this next year, because my computer&#8217;s finally ending its life.</p>



<p>But yeah, Skype. And the other thing was, is we didn&#8217;t have the easy ways to clean up the audio feed that we have now. You get those high pitch wines, or bad cable, or background noise, or whatever, or even the mismatched audio levels. You had to actually go in and kind of edit that a little bit to get your audio as clean as possible.</p>



<p>Because the biggest thing from the beginning I knew is, it doesn&#8217;t really matter what you&#8217;re talking about, if the audio&#8217;s not clean, people will stop listening. If the audio&#8217;s got annoying noises or something, or they can&#8217;t quite hear, or one host is suddenly blaring in the air and the other host is like a mouse talking in the other ear, they go, oh, I can&#8217;t listen to this. And they won&#8217;t listen to you.</p>



<p>[00:15:09] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Do you know, it&#8217;s really interesting because somebody warned me of this right at the beginning of my podcast journey, and they framed it even more than that. They said that if you&#8217;re watching a video and the quality of the video is poor, you&#8217;ll forgive that. But you&#8217;ll never forgive bad audio. You just can&#8217;t watch something on, let&#8217;s say, YouTube or a film or whatever if the audio is crackly or distorted. There&#8217;s just nothing, you know, unless you can lip read, there&#8217;s nothing coming at you that&#8217;s useful.</p>



<p>And I remember taking that to heart and thinking, okay, that&#8217;s important. But then being frustrated by the technology that, just things like Skype couldn&#8217;t keep up. There&#8217;d be dropouts in everything, and so editing was a nightmare.</p>



<p>[00:15:48] <strong>John Overall:</strong> Yes, it was. And although pretty much all my shows are live to tape, I discovered a program that&#8217;s called Level Later. And it&#8217;s a very old program, but what it does is you can take any audio file with multiple levels in it, you throw it into this, it runs it through some passes, some computer magic, and it comes out and all the levels are perfect in it. And I&#8217;ve been using Level Later for years now, because no matter how hard I try, I can never get the levels perfect when I&#8217;m recording it between two hosts. Because I&#8217;m not using intermediate software that&#8217;s doing it for me. I record mine straight to OBS.</p>



<p>[00:16:22] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, if you are thinking about getting into the podcasting world, and we can decide whether or not that&#8217;s useful these days given the dearth of podcasts. But if you are, honestly, it&#8217;s so straightforward now. I&#8217;m using, currently, an app called SquadCast, but there&#8217;s a whole bunch of rivals out there in the marketplace. There&#8217;s things like Riverside.FM and many, many others.</p>



<p>And they allow you to record through a browser, and in this case, John&#8217;s track and my track will be isolated, I&#8217;ll download them both. And so that never happened. Before it was just one track that you had to, if your audio is mucky, then so was mine. There was no way of separating those two.</p>



<p>But now yours will come separately, mine will come separately, and if I&#8217;ve got 10 guests, they&#8217;ll all be separate. And then I throw them into, similar to you, I throw them into an app which basically cleans things up and automatically levels things. And then will create transcripts, and it&#8217;s just miraculous. It&#8217;s so, so straightforward.</p>



<p>[00:17:13] <strong>John Overall:</strong> It&#8217;s gotten really good. I&#8217;m, re-embracing all of that stuff. For the last four years, I&#8217;d taken my business down to the minimal levels of what I had to put into it, and I focused on my farmstead that I have, my urban farmstead. And in this last year I realised I needed to get back to my roots, and my WordPress and all of my other work. And so this last year we&#8217;ve been rebuilding everything.</p>



<p>And the WP Plugin show, it went off the rails for a little while. I got a little political for a little while and lost a large chunk of my audience, and a lot of them are coming back now because I&#8217;ve got it back to what it was, the show it was before. It is allowing everything, and also I&#8217;ve got a new co-host in there, my daughter, been training in my business for the last five years to take over this business as I get ready for retirement time.</p>



<p>She&#8217;s become my co-host on there. In fact, she&#8217;s more of the host than I am now. She does more of the talking and more of the direction of the show each week. Which is kind of interesting. It makes for a more interesting show, having a different viewpoint on it than mine. Because I think I went, when Marcus left the show back in 2016 or 17, and I did like four years of just me on the show. And it&#8217;s really hard to be a single host on a show week after week after week.</p>



<p>[00:18:27] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> I feel your pain.</p>



<p>[00:18:28] <strong>John Overall:</strong> That&#8217;s why you need guests or you need to have a co-host to help keep some life in it. Anyone who tries to do a podcast, like podcasts nowadays. Yeah, anyone can do them and, yes, there is a dearth of them, but the problem is, if you go look at those podcasts, about 80% of them never make it past episode 30.</p>



<p>[00:18:45] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Or even, I mean, it&#8217;s probably like 50% past episode one in all honesty.</p>



<p>[00:18:50] <strong>John Overall:</strong> Yeah that too. They find out, wait a minute, this is a lot of work, and it&#8217;s really hard. It&#8217;s usually the ones that try to do it by themselves and they&#8217;ve got the momentum for the first 10, 15 episodes. After that, you&#8217;ve got to keep pushing yourself.</p>



<p>[00:19:02] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, there&#8217;s a grind, isn&#8217;t there? And although we&#8217;ve just made the case that making a podcast is straightforward, from a technological point of view, it&#8217;s easier than ever. But the grind hasn&#8217;t gone away. And in fact, new grind has been added in.</p>



<p>So when you began, and when I began, social media was a bit of a thing, but not really. It wasn&#8217;t kind of an essential component. But now it&#8217;s almost like the only distribution mechanism, outside of RSS, and perhaps a WordPress website.</p>



<p>All of those pieces have kind of got bundled in. So you have to make sure to promote it, and cross-promote it, and create, I don&#8217;t know, alternative, different snippets of it that go on this platform and that platform. So there&#8217;s a whole load of other things.</p>



<p>It isn&#8217;t something that, unless you&#8217;ve got a real passion for it, it&#8217;s something that, like you said, episode 30 is probably going to be where you get and give in because you start in New Year, brand new, New Year&#8217;s resolution. January, I&#8217;m going to do a podcast, and you keep going for a little while. And I was telling you that there are very few things in my life where I&#8217;ve had the capacity to stick at it, but podcasting for some reason has worked for me. I guess I just like listening to my own voice.</p>



<p>[00:20:05] <strong>John Overall:</strong> There&#8217;s that aspect too, listening to your own voice. Sometimes I listen to myself and I go, really? That&#8217;s me? You don&#8217;t get used to that. No matter all these years, I still can&#8217;t get used to my voice.</p>



<p>But the other thing is, for some people, a lot of people use it to help improve their knowledge in their particular area they&#8217;re podcasting about.</p>



<p>I like history podcasts from time to time. And those ones there, it means it&#8217;s a serious history buff doing a podcast about something he&#8217;s excited about. And what he&#8217;s getting a chance to do is share to the world what he&#8217;s doing.</p>



<p>The same I do with WordPress, I share things to everybody about what is in the WordPress world and what&#8217;s changing. And now our show has moved in a different direction. We dropped down from the number of plugins we do each week. We have more discussion about things we see happening. There&#8217;s new segments coming into the show that&#8217;ll be talking about, here&#8217;s a problem in WordPress we found, how we solved it, coming from my daughter&#8217;s perspective, who, she&#8217;s five years into this, so she&#8217;s relatively new and everything. It&#8217;s like everything&#8217;s brand new to her. A lot of it&#8217;s all, oh yeah, it&#8217;s just CSS. I don&#8217;t understand that Dad. And I was like, oh yeah, you&#8217;re kind of new at this. I have to explain things.</p>



<p>So when I&#8217;ve discovered problems, there&#8217;s problems I can solve in like 20 minutes and it takes her five hours because she doesn&#8217;t know where to go to see the problem. These are what I&#8217;m starting to bring back to the show. Stuff that used to be in the show and it had gotten lost along the way. And it&#8217;s also we&#8217;re talking about what we see changing in the WordPress environment, and how we see this environment evolving over the next couple years.</p>



<p>We did a show, our Christmas and New Year&#8217;s shows were prerecorded. We do prerecorded shows usually about that time, so we can spend time with the family and not worry about the show. But we&#8217;d made predictions of what was coming in the New Year that hadn&#8217;t yet come to pass. By the time we did our first show, a week and a half ago, by the time we did our first show for the New Year, we had already had two or three successful predictions of what was changing in WordPress.</p>



<p>We&#8217;re both starting to see this, which is exciting in the fact that, oh, okay, this sort of event is going to happen in WordPress and this is where it&#8217;s going to go. With all the doom and gloom, as I mentioned, the doom and gloom as I see, like I follow the forums over at the Reddits, and Twitters, and all over the place because I get our news from everywhere to keep up. And I see a lot of people, doom and gloom of people abandoning.</p>



<p>I tried abandoning WordPress at the introduction of Gutenberg. I even took my show towards ClassicPress. And that happened for about two years. And then I realised, unfortunately, ClassicPress didn&#8217;t have a community momentum behind it, and WordPress kept going. Even though I currently build in WordPress, I don&#8217;t use Gutenberg, because no matter how many times I try to wrap my head around it, I can&#8217;t get my brain to think that way. And so I use Elementor for all my builds. And it allows me to continue using the Classic Editor.</p>



<p>But that sort of thing is going to continue. They were going to supposedly stop supporting the Classic Editor, but unfortunately it&#8217;s not happening, because a good 50% of the WordPress community still uses the Classic Editor, and a page builder of some sort. Versus 50% that are using Gutenberg. And they can live together. It took me a while to realise that they can live together. You just have to work with it.</p>



<p>I have a couple of clients who use Gutenberg. I can sort of muck my way through it if I really work at it. But it&#8217;s going to continue, and these things are going to keep changing and evolving. The WordPress plugins, I&#8217;ve seen the developers creating some amazing developments. When we just launched the new website for our business, we actually have a whole WP Pro A to Z lineup, WP Plugins, WP Pro A to Z.</p>



<p>When we launched our new site, I found a plugin I didn&#8217;t know existed, which will be coming in one of my shows, upcoming. If you need a booking plugin and you use Gravity Forms, somebody wrote a full blown addition to Gravity Forms for a booking plugin. So you don&#8217;t have to go spend money on another third party service or a service as a software, SaaS service where you&#8217;re putting out money. You pay for this one plugin, integrate it into Gravity Forms and you get everything. And now it&#8217;s all in one form and you still control your data.</p>



<p>[00:24:07] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> I really like the idea that you had of having that kind of theme running through, because in any of the podcasts I do, basically each episode is atomised, you know, it&#8217;s just an episode and then you listen to a different one, and there&#8217;s no real connection necessarily between the episodes. And I really like the idea of having a thread which runs through.</p>



<p>But also, I am really curious about plugins in particular, and I would love to have the excuse to play with them. Because then it would be, air quotes, then it would be work suddenly. The excuse of, what are you doing? I&#8217;m doing work. I&#8217;m playing with a plugin.</p>



<p>[00:24:39] <strong>John Overall:</strong> Play with a plugin, figuring it out, throw it on one of my dozens of domains that I&#8217;m doing nothing with, that collect all kinds of stuff.</p>



<p>No, the other joy is, as you mentioned with plugins, is of course, because once developers rediscover us, and the way we review stuff, and we give honest reviews, we tell them, truthfully what we find wrong and what we don&#8217;t. We give a good, honest rating. It&#8217;s very seldom we&#8217;ll give a rating as low as a two, but it has happened in the past.</p>



<p>We don&#8217;t automatically like give it a five, it has to be worthy of a five. Most of them fall between three and four, which is where most of them are anyway.</p>



<p>But the other joy is, is I get developers, they got a premium plugin and they go, hey, you want to check it out and I say, yeah, give me your premium plugin and a license, all give it a review.</p>



<p>So I get to play with premium plugins without having to spend the money on them, which is a joy. But it also allows people to find out what it might do. And the other thing that&#8217;s coming again, I used to have training videos, create training videos on how to use plugins. In fact, my training videos on my YouTube channel, some of them are still some of my highest rated plugins.</p>



<p>[00:25:38] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> I feel that I was really lucky being in the WordPress community, then discovering podcasting. Because I feel like all the pieces of the jigsaw, which go into making a podcast, are easily handled with WordPress. And so that was just a nice bit of serendipity. If you understand how to put a website up, well, that&#8217;s one thing you kind of really do need if you&#8217;re going to have a podcast.</p>



<p>And there&#8217;s plugins which will handle the RSS feed. There&#8217;s plugins which will handle the contact forms. There&#8217;s plugins which will handle the display of your website if you&#8217;re not using Core. And so I felt that talking about WordPress, and having the capacity to use WordPress was a real boon for me. Just made the whole thing much more straightforward. But like you&#8217;re describing about your daughter, not the same for everybody.</p>



<p>[00:26:21] <strong>John Overall:</strong> Yeah, well, one of the interesting things about, when you mentioned a plugin for this and a plugin for that, you remember the early days of the Apple advertising, There&#8217;s an app for that.</p>



<p>[00:26:29] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> For the iPhone, yeah.</p>



<p>[00:26:30] <strong>John Overall:</strong> We used to say for the longest time, well, there&#8217;s a plugin for that.</p>



<p>[00:26:32] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah. And there was.</p>



<p>[00:26:34] <strong>John Overall:</strong> There literally was, and there still is. And if you don&#8217;t think there is, it&#8217;s easy enough to build. It&#8217;s like, I&#8217;ve actually gone so far, in the last couple of years, to pay developers to create plugins for me. Sometime around the end of this year we&#8217;ll be introducing a plugin that has not been created yet for any of the things on WordPress. We&#8217;ve been working on something, and so that&#8217;s a little tidbit of what&#8217;s coming. As we get closer to the beta release, which is expected, the beta release is expected September, October of this year. Then we&#8217;ll be talking more and more in depth about this plugin.</p>



<p>[00:27:07] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Do you still intend to keep going with your podcast into the, basically into the future, forever? Do you have a sort of timeline, like when you get to, I don&#8217;t know, a thousand episodes of this particular podcast, that&#8217;ll be it?</p>



<p>[00:27:18] <strong>John Overall:</strong> As long as the show has still got listeners, and some audience, and it still provides value for what we do, no. Because one of the biggest things, and even my daughters realised this. Because she has to do research for every episode, because a lot of people don&#8217;t realizse, okay, you do a podcast, oh, it&#8217;s about an hour long. They don&#8217;t realise that that hour long required three to four hours of research in preparation of your notes and everything for the show, plus whatever post-production, everything else. By the time you&#8217;re done, a one hour show is usually a five to seven hour investment of time.</p>



<p>The thing is, when you&#8217;re doing that research, what it does is that increases your knowledge, because you&#8217;re looking at things you hadn&#8217;t looked at before, and it helps increase and input more knowledge into you, and expand your knowledge as an expert in the field. Many, many people started podcasts as a side hobby, and turned into experts in their field, because of their podcast. That&#8217;s what it forces you to do, is it forces you to become an expert in whatever field your podcast focuses on.</p>



<p>[00:28:18] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Did you ever get into creating podcast websites for people?</p>



<p>[00:28:22] <strong>John Overall:</strong> No.</p>



<p>[00:28:22] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> No, me neither. And there&#8217;s some part of me which regrets that, because I think that would&#8217;ve been a real good wheelhouse for me.</p>



<p>[00:28:28] <strong>John Overall:</strong> It would&#8217;ve been, and it would&#8217;ve been except for, you would&#8217;ve been changing a lot, and the investment in time and the screenshots for it would be even higher than the investment in time I&#8217;ve got now.</p>



<p>It was all about how much investment in time versus the return on that investment in time. It is how I&#8217;ve done it.</p>



<p>I did training videos, and my training videos are still some of the highest viewed videos on YouTube, and they&#8217;re old and ancient now, and they&#8217;re out of date. And I even got a question from one of the training videos, what was it, a couple of months ago, somebody contacted me and asked me questions. I said, oh, dear God, I forgot I did that.</p>



<p>And when I went and looked at it, I said, I&#8217;m sorry, it&#8217;s out of date. I haven&#8217;t used that plugin in four or five years now, so I don&#8217;t know. And this is the problem of it. And so I&#8217;m starting to create new ones, partly because I&#8217;m creating these training videos for my clients to be able to manage their sites. Because my job as a web designer is not to manage their website forever, but build them a website that they can do all their own content and not keep having me having to put the content in, because they don&#8217;t want to pay the fees for simple things like adding content.</p>



<p>And so we build websites to do that, but they need instructions on how to do it. So we build nice, simple training videos that they can go look at and remind themselves how to do it. And so I&#8217;m actually starting to do that with the plugins again. And for plugins, in fact, one of my training videos for a plugin I did a few years ago, the plugin developer adopted that video right into their code as their training video for how to use the plugin. I do do very detailed, and something people told me was, I&#8217;m very good at translating geek to English.</p>



<p>And that was the nice thing is, if you try to tell them how to do it in geek, and a lot of computer guys, they can&#8217;t translate geek to English.</p>



<p>[00:30:09] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Also you have this strange thing on an audio podcast where in many cases you&#8217;re trying to describe the functionality of something, which would be so much easier if you could just see it. So it does this, and the way it does this, oh, okay, and you have to try and explain it. And sometimes that involves saying, well, you have to tick this box over here, and then go over here, and do this, and this.</p>



<p>And it really does make you stop and think, what&#8217;s the best way to describe this? What&#8217;s going to work? What&#8217;s not going to work? And I think you&#8217;re right, it does make you think around the problem. They say that if you can teach something, then you truly understand it. I think there&#8217;s a little bit of that in there.</p>



<p>[00:30:42] <strong>John Overall:</strong> That was the other thing I did in the beginning of WordPress. I actually taught WordPress. I had courses here in Victoria where I live. I had night classes that people would sign up and come pay me money to teach them how to use WordPress. And I did those for about, all the way up until version four of WordPress when YouTube got flooded with tutorials and my courses became irrelevant. But for a few years, that was another way I expanded my knowledge was I taught it to people, because in preparation to teach it, I had to know what I was telling people.</p>



<p>[00:31:10] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> You mentioned that there was a period of time where you fell out with podcasting or it fell out with you, or whatever it may be. You sort of dropped away from it. Did you find though, that when you came back, you mentioned that the audience is sort of still there? The curious thing for me is, I noticed this just the other day, a podcast that is in my podcast player that I have never listened to for years, and the reason I haven&#8217;t listened is because they just went away, but it&#8217;s still there.</p>



<p>And then they came back. RSS is a bit brilliant like that. Because there&#8217;s no algorithm feeding it to you, there&#8217;s no algorithm like on YouTube saying, okay, now what about this. It jumped right to the top of my playlist. And I suddenly thought, gosh, I haven&#8217;t seen that one for a while. Click play, and the first words were, we&#8217;re back, we&#8217;ve had a couple of years off or whatever.</p>



<p>I thought that was really cool. So I did wonder if your audience, by just mere fact of the way RSS readers work, and RSS feeds work with podcast players, if they&#8217;d stock with you, even though they didn&#8217;t know they were sticking with you.</p>



<p>[00:32:05] <strong>John Overall:</strong> I&#8217;d say about one third of my audience, in truth, I never left it entirely. We would always put out a episode of WP Plugins A to Z. We would put out an episode, at worst it fell to an episode a month is what happened. It was never completely off the air. But the audience dropped down to, we&#8217;re about one third right now the audience we used to have.</p>



<p>And a lot of them left me during my period of despair with the world, is lack of a better term. A lot of them left me during that period there. I chased a few of them away. Some of them I will earn back, some of them I won&#8217;t. Some of them have retired, I imagine, because what was interesting is my audience for the most part is as old or almost as old as me. And I&#8217;m pushing, you know, the upper echelons of fifties now. Because I&#8217;ve been doing this since my early forties. And some people, they&#8217;ve aged out.</p>



<p>We&#8217;re actually, because my daughter is a millennial, she&#8217;s in her thirties now, we&#8217;re going after the people in her audience segment. We&#8217;re changing our audience focus. We&#8217;re no longer worried about the old time geeks, the ones that know what they&#8217;re doing. We want the younger people who don&#8217;t know where they&#8217;re going, what they&#8217;re doing, they&#8217;re looking for advice, they want to do these things.</p>



<p>We&#8217;re working the audience to go after the younger generation, the millennials and the Zoomers, who are just now coming up into, okay, I need to build a business. What do I choose for building my website? Do I go with WordPress? Do I go with Shopify? Do I get Wix? Do I go crazy and go on a Drupal website? You know, it&#8217;s like, what are they going to do?</p>



<p>And so we&#8217;re hoping that we can find these people that are hunting, and get them to look to us for the expertise and advice, and come see me. Like, I now have 25, actually 26 years now of experience in this industry. So I&#8217;ve just started offering consulting services for building a website. Because a lot of people don&#8217;t realise it&#8217;s like, you can dive into your website and you can spend, what&#8217;s your time worth? Is your time worth money, or is it not as valuable?</p>



<p>So you can spend the next 70, 80 hours trying to figure things out. Or do you want to buy a few hours of my time and get some direction, and save yourself hours and hours of time, and know where you&#8217;re going with your website. Like, we&#8217;ve been fortunate enough to, in the last couple of years, build some very high frontend websites such as we rebuilt the website for the sierraclub.bc.ca, here in Western Canada.</p>



<p>So we&#8217;ve had a few high-end websites like that we&#8217;ve built the last couple of years, to be able to showcase the kind of work and capabilities we have now. So it helps show that, yes, we have expertise in this. And I&#8217;m just going back and tying into all my years of knowledge now and bringing it back forward.</p>



<p>[00:34:44] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> I think that&#8217;s a really credible thing to be able to show as well. You know, I&#8217;ve been doing a podcast for 15 odd years or something, it&#8217;s definitely a lot of credibility. But also I think it&#8217;s great that you&#8217;ve managed to sort of co-opt your daughter into it. So not only has that breathed a whole new generation of an audience into the podcast, but it&#8217;s also binding you to a family member, a close family member, and I think that&#8217;s lovely.</p>



<p>[00:35:05] <strong>John Overall:</strong> Yeah, well, I&#8217;m also trying to co-op my granddaughters into it too.</p>



<p>[00:35:08] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Really a different generation.</p>



<p>[00:35:10] <strong>John Overall:</strong> Neither one of my sons are much interested in technology, they&#8217;re so, so. But my oldest son&#8217;s become an electrician. My youngest son is looking at possibly going into trades as a welder. But my oldest son definitely is being an electrician, he starts as an apprentice as soon as he graduates.</p>



<p>But it&#8217;s really good to bring in your next generations. If you have them, bring them in. If they&#8217;re excited in any way, find which component of your business they might be excited in, and put them into it. That&#8217;s one less person you have to worry about. And you can help ensure that maybe your business will last a couple of generations.</p>



<p>[00:35:43] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Well, Jonathan, unfortunately time has got the better of us. I really appreciate all of the content that you&#8217;ve put out there. I hope that it carries on and you&#8217;ll be able to make the new show with your daughter a real success. Where do people find you?</p>



<p>[00:35:55] <strong>John Overall:</strong> You can find us online at two places, WP Plugins, A to Z, or Z for the Americans .com. And that&#8217;s where the show is hosted at. And all of our show notes are there. And you can also find us at wpproatoz.com. That&#8217;s our company website.</p>



<p>[00:36:12] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> I will definitely put all of those links into the show notes. Jonathan Overall, thank you so much for chatting to me today. I really appreciate it.</p>



<p>[00:36:19] <strong>John Overall:</strong> Thanks a lot, Nathan. It&#8217;s been a pleasure.</p>
</div>



<p>On the podcast today we have <a href="https://wppluginsatoz.com/">John Overall</a>.</p>



<p>John is a veteran in the WordPress podcasting world, bringing over 16 years of experience with the WP Plugins A to Z show. He&#8217;s an early adopter of WordPress, and has seen the platform evolve and grow, and has built a wealth of knowledge around plugins, which he thinks have been pivotal to WordPress&#8217;s versatility.</p>



<p>John shares his journey into the world of podcasting, initially using it as a tool to grow his business, and expand his expertise within the WordPress ecosystem. He gets into how the podcast landscape has shifted from its early days to the present, with technological advances making it easier than ever to produce and distribute shows.</p>



<p>We talk about the evolution of WordPress plugins, how they have shaped the WordPress platform over the years, and John&#8217;s unique approach to managing and understanding these powerful tools, making a podcast to help him better understand what each plugin does.</p>



<p>John also shares stories about his interactions with his audience, and how the podcast has forged connections that might not be the norm for client relationships.</p>



<p>We move onto the ever-changing WordPress environment, and John shares predictions and insights about the platform&#8217;s future, and how he’s using podcasting as a medium to continually learn and adapt, which in turn benefits his audience.</p>



<p>Something new for John is how he’s involving his family in his podcasting journey. His daughter has breathed new life, and perspectives, into the show, hoping to appeal to a younger generation while retaining his loyal audience.</p>



<p>If you’re passionate about WordPress, podcasting, or just interested in understanding a holistic approach to long-term content creation and audience engagement, this episode is for you.</p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading">Useful links</h2>



<p><a href="https://wppluginsatoz.com/">WP Plugins AtoZ website</a></p>



<p><a href="https://squadcast.fm/"> SquadCast</a></p>



<p><a href="https://riverside.fm/"> Riverside.FM</a></p>



<p><a href="https://www.classicpress.net/">ClassicPress</a></p>



<p><a href="https://elementor.com/">Elementor</a></p>



<p><a href="https://wpproatoz.com/">WP Pro A to Z website</a></p>



<p><a href="https://www.gravityforms.com/">Gravity Forms</a></p>



<p><a href="https://sierraclub.bc.ca/">Sierra Club BC website</a></p>";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Wed, 26 Feb 2025 15:00:00 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:14:"Nathan Wrigley";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:14;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:13:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:114:"Do The Woo Community: From Design to Deployment: Why Figma and Design Systems Are Essential for WordPress Projects";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:43:"https://dothewoo.io/?post_type=blog&p=90664";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:117:"https://dothewoo.io/blog/from-design-to-deployment-why-figma-and-design-systems-are-essential-for-wordpress-projects/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:227:"Using Figma and design systems streamlines WordPress workflows, ensuring precision, consistency, and efficiency. Learn how structured design approaches empower developers and designers to create scalable, high-quality websites.";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Wed, 26 Feb 2025 10:00:00 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:8:"Ash Shaw";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:15;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:13:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:83:"Do The Woo Community: Insights and Innovations in WooCommerce: Embracing the Future";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:43:"https://dothewoo.io/?post_type=blog&p=89390";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:86:"https://dothewoo.io/blog/insights-and-innovations-in-woocommerce-embracing-the-future/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:167:"Learn about WooCommerce's growth through community engagement, builder tools, core features, and the "default to public" philosophy for transparency and collaboration.";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Tue, 25 Feb 2025 10:44:50 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:5:"BobWP";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:16;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:13:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:58:"WordPress.org blog: Shaping Tomorrow at WordCamp Asia 2025";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:35:"https://wordpress.org/news/?p=18515";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:74:"https://wordpress.org/news/2025/02/shaping-tomorrow-at-wordcamp-asia-2025/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:14237:"<img width="1024" height="512" src="https://i0.wp.com/wordpress.org/news/files/2025/02/20250222-WCAsia-02-21-PM_1280x640-1-scaled-1.jpg?resize=1024%2C512&ssl=1" alt="WordCamp Asia 2025 attendees gathered for a group photo" class="wp-image-18521" />



<p>Over 1,400 attendees from 71 countries gathered at the Philippine International Convention Center in Manila, and nearly 15,000 more joined online, for WordCamp Asia 2025.</p>



<div class="wp-block-group is-nowrap is-layout-flex wp-container-core-group-is-layout-1 wp-block-group-is-layout-flex">
<blockquote><p>It&#8217;s the people. It&#8217;s the friendships and the stories.</p><cite>Matt Mullenweg, WordPress Cofounder</cite></blockquote>
</div>



<p>The flagship WordPress event started with a dedicated Contributor Day, followed by two days of engaging talks, panels, hands-on workshops, and networking. Notable guests included WordPress Cofounder <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/matt/">Matt Mullenweg</a> and Gutenberg Lead Architect <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/matveb/">Matías Ventura</a>, who were joined by a diverse lineup of speakers and panelists.</p>



<p>Throughout the event, the sponsor hall buzzed with activity as companies from across the WordPress ecosystem showcased their latest products, engaged with attendees, and offered live demos and giveaways.&nbsp;Each day, attendees refueled with diverse food offerings featuring Filipino favorites, turning meals into a prime networking opportunity where new connections were made and ideas were exchanged.</p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading">New Ways to Engage</h2>



<p>This year’s event introduced several new programs to the schedule:</p>



<ul class="wp-block-list">
<li><strong>Solutions Spotlight</strong>—a series of dynamic 10-minute lightning talks that gave an inside look at innovative products, cutting-edge strategies, and real-world solutions from top-tier sponsors, all designed to help attendees succeed in the WordPress ecosystem. These fast-paced sessions offered a unique opportunity to discover how leading brands are solving challenges, empowering users, and shaping the future of WordPress.</li>



<li><strong>YouthCamp</strong>, a dedicated event for kids and teens ages 8-17, offered a full day of free, hands-on sessions designed to spark creativity and introduce the world of WordPress and open source. Through interactive workshops covering web basics, design, and development, participants gained practical skills while exploring the power of building online.&nbsp;</li>



<li>The new <strong>Career and Social Corners</strong> enhanced networking, fostered meaningful connections, and created new opportunities for those within the WordPress community. Career Corner was the go-to space for attendees exploring career opportunities, connecting with sponsors, and discovering exciting new roles. Meanwhile, Social Corner offered a relaxed, lounge-style environment where attendees could engage in informal discussions over refreshments.</li>
</ul>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading">Contributor Day</h2>



<p>WordCamp Asia kicked off with an incredible Contributor Day, bringing together almost 800 contributors, many of them new, to collaborate, share knowledge, and give back to WordPress. With 37 dedicated table leads and 16 experts from the Human Library guiding the way, participants of all experience levels engaged in meaningful discussions, tackled important tasks, and made a lasting impact on the WordPress project.</p>




<img width="1024" height="683" src="https://i0.wp.com/wordpress.org/news/files/2025/02/20250220-DSC_1834.jpg?resize=1024%2C683&ssl=1" alt="" class="wp-image-18526" /><button class="lightbox-trigger" type="button">
			
				
			
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<p>Key contributions included resolving a critical media bug, advancing vertical text editing in Gutenberg, and refining the editing experience with dozens of issue closures. Performance optimizations and accessibility improvements abounded, joined by seven fresh patterns, and over 4,000 newly translated strings.</p>



<p>New tools and workflows were explored to enhance testing and development. The day also saw meaningful conversations between hosting providers and users, improvements to event organizing processes, and hands-on training.</p>



<p>With innovative ideas, new faces, and significant progress across multiple areas, Contributor Day reinforced the spirit of open source collaboration that drives WordPress forward.</p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading">The Future is WordPress</h2>



<p>On the first full conference day, attendees gathered to celebrate the power of open source collaboration and innovation. Opening remarks from global and local event leads reflected on the incredible journey of WordCamp Asia, tracing its roots back to the first Southeast Asian WordCamp in Manila in 2008. This full-circle moment underscored how the WordPress community has flourished over the years, driven by shared knowledge and a commitment to an open web. The excitement continued with a highly anticipated opening keynote from Matías Ventura, who shared insights into the future of Gutenberg and WordPress, inspiring attendees to embrace the next wave of innovation and creativity in content publishing.</p>



<div class="wp-block-embed__wrapper">

</div>



<p>The day then began in earnest. Talks highlighted new ways to integrate WordPress with external applications, opening possibilities for more interactive and scalable digital experiences. Simultaneously, content strategists and marketers explored evolving best practices in SEO, learning how to optimize their sites for visibility, engagement, and long-term growth. These sessions emphasized the importance of adaptability in a constantly evolving digital landscape, ensuring that WordPress users stay ahead of industry trends.</p>



<p>Workshops throughout the day provided hands-on learning experiences tailored to a wide range of skill levels. Developers refined their expertise, gaining practical knowledge they could apply to their own projects. Accessibility advocates led discussions on designing for inclusivity, showcasing strategies to make WordPress-powered websites more navigable and user-friendly for people of all abilities.</p>



<p>As the conference continued into the afternoon, conversations expanded to performance optimization and emerging technologies shaping the future of WordPress. A dedicated session explored AI-driven workflows, demonstrating how artificial intelligence can enhance site performance, automate repetitive tasks, and create more personalized user experiences. These discussions showcased the evolving role of WordPress as a versatile platform that extends beyond traditional publishing.</p>



<p>The first day culminated in a thought-provoking keynote panel, WordPress in 2030, where industry leaders explored the future of the platform. The discussion covered the expanding open source community, emerging technologies, and the role of education and mentorship. Panelists shared their perspectives on the opportunities and challenges ahead, encouraging attendees to actively shape the future of WordPress by contributing, innovating, and advocating for an open web.</p>



<img width="1024" height="442" src="https://i0.wp.com/wordpress.org/news/files/2025/02/20250222-CleanShot-2025-02-22-at-07.42.19%402x.jpg?resize=1024%2C442&ssl=1" alt="Panelists Noel Tock, Hong Phuc Dang, Jon Ang, Courtney Robertson, and Raquel Manriquez discuss WordPress in 2030" class="wp-image-18561" />



<p>Returning for the final day of WordCamp Asia 2025, attendees explored a new set of sessions designed to push the boundaries of web development and strategy. Technical discussions on advanced Gutenberg block development highlighted innovative ways to build more dynamic and interactive content experiences, while another session examined performance optimization strategies to enhance site speed, accessibility, and overall user engagement. Content creators and marketers gained valuable insights into audience growth, effective storytelling, and data-driven content strategies to maximize impact.</p>



<p>The final sessions of the conference reinforced WordPress’s adaptability and innovation, equipping attendees with new skills and strategies.</p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading">Q&amp;A</h2>



<p>As the final day drew to a close, Matt shared historic photos from WordCamp Davao 2008 in the Philippines, and then answered questions from the audience.</p>



<div class="wp-block-embed__wrapper">
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<p>Questions covered a variety of topics, incluiding: publishing on the open web, AI, headless WordPress, education, and Matt’s personal motivations. It was clear throughout the Q&amp;A that the future of WordPress is as bright as the island-themed attire at the event’s after-party.</p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading">Closing</h2>



<p>Thank you to all the hard-working organizers who made this event possible, the speakers who took the stage, the visitors who ventured to Manila, and everyone who tuned in from around the world. Our hope is that every WordCamp attendee leaves with new knowledge, new friends, and new inspiration to build a better web.</p>




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<p>Be sure to mark your calendars for other major WordPress events in 2025: <a href="https://europe.wordcamp.org/2025/">WordCamp Europe</a> (Basel, Switzerland) and<a href="https://us.wordcamp.org/2025/"> WordCamp US</a> (Portland, Oregon, USA). Then join us in Mumbai, India for WordCamp Asia 2026!</p>";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Sat, 22 Feb 2025 15:04:04 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:17:"Nicholas Garofalo";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:17;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:13:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:39:"Matt: WordCamp Asia and Maha Kumbh Mela";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:23:"https://ma.tt/?p=138006";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:35:"https://ma.tt/2025/02/wcasia-kumbh/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:1434:"<p>It&#8217;s been fantastic being in the Philippines for <a href="https://asia.wordcamp.org/2025/">this year&#8217;s WordCamp Asia</a>. We have attendees from 71 countries, over 1,800 tickets sold, and contributor day had over 700 people! It&#8217;s an interesting contrast to US and EU WordCamps as well in that the audience is definitely a lot younger, and there&#8217;s very little interest in &#8220;wpdrama&#8221; du jour, in fact I&#8217;ve had tons of amazing conversations of support and talking about the strength and growth of the community.</p>



<p>Some of the earliest international WordCamps I went to were in Manila and Davao, back in 2008. (I&#8217;m going to share some pictures at the start of my talk.) Between that and spending lots of time in Daly City when I moved to San Francisco when I was 20 I have developed a fondness for the cuisine, creativity, family orientation, and warmth of the culture here.</p>



<p>After this I&#8217;ll be taking a bit of time off for a trip to the big Hindu religious pilgrimage in India, the <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kumbh_Mela">Maha Kumbh Mela</a>, which is currently on a 144 cycle. It&#8217;s the largest human gathering in the world, with some days measured with tens of millions of people visiting. I&#8217;ll be returning to my Photomatt roots as well and bringing my big camera rig, right now a Nikon Z 7II, and two lenses: 24-70 2.8 and 70-200 2.8.</p>";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Sat, 22 Feb 2025 06:01:19 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:4:"Matt";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:18;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:13:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:47:"Do The Woo Community: Do the Woo v5.0 Changelog";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:43:"https://dothewoo.io/?post_type=blog&p=91258";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:51:"https://dothewoo.io/blog/do-the-woo-v5-0-changelog/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:61:"Version 5.0 2025-02-20 You can see our entire changelog here.";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Thu, 20 Feb 2025 11:46:48 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:5:"BobWP";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:19;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:13:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:74:"Do The Woo Community: Do the Woo v5.0 is in the Wild at WordCamp Asia 2025";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:28:"https://dothewoo.io/?p=91204";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:73:"https://dothewoo.io/do-the-woo-v5-0-is-in-the-wild-at-wordcamp-asia-2025/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:354:"In this episode, BobWP announces the launch of version 5.0 at WordCamp Asia, featuring a redesigned homepage that emphasizes multimedia content. The update introduces video, enhancing the existing audio format. He welcomes new host Cami MacNamara and encourages listeners to check out the changelog for further updates and visit their booth at the event.";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Thu, 20 Feb 2025 00:05:00 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:5:"BobWP";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:20;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:13:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:59:"Gravatar: New! Initials Avatars, Email Signatures, and More";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:32:"http://blog.gravatar.com/?p=2918";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:71:"https://blog.gravatar.com/2025/02/19/initials-avatars-email-signatures/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:3769:"<p>Your Gravatar is your globally recognized avatar, showing up on millions of sites across the web. In fact, we&#8217;re serving up <strong><em>30,000 avatar requests every second</em></strong> &#8211; that&#8217;s <strong><em>billions of avatars every week</em></strong>, helping put faces to names all over the internet.</p>



<p>And today, we&#8217;re making Gravatar even better. </p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading">Initials Avatars: You Asked, We Delivered</h2>



<img width="719" height="404" src="https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/02/image-edited.png" alt="" class="wp-image-2921" />



<p>Developers, this one&#8217;s for you. After years of requests (we heard you, we promise!), initials avatars are here. Now available through our <a href="https://docs.gravatar.com/api/avatars/images/">free Avatars service</a> and the Gravatar Enhanced plugin for WordPress, you can automatically generate professional-looking avatars using your users&#8217; initials. Even if they don&#8217;t have a Gravatar account.</p>



<p>These new avatars automatically pull from the profile display name, creating initials with beautifully generated background and foreground colors. No display name? No problem &#8211; we&#8217;ll show a friendly emoji instead.</p>



<p>And while we were at it, we gave our default avatars a fresh wardrobe. The classic silhouette and logo avatars got a modern makeover that feels right at home in 2025.</p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading">Email Signatures That Pop</h2>



<img width="2086" height="970" src="https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/02/cleanshot-2025-02-18-at-12.24.39402x.png" alt="" class="has-border-color has-contrast-border-color wp-image-2932" />



<p>Want to share your Gravatar profile in your emails? We&#8217;ve made it ridiculously easy. </p>



<p><strong>Here&#8217;s how:</strong></p>



<ul class="wp-block-list">
<li>Head to <a href="http://gravatar.com/profile">gravatar.com/profile</a></li>



<li>click on <strong><em>Email signature</em></strong> in the bottom left</li>



<li>grab the code and paste it into Gmail or your email client </li>
</ul>



<p>Check out our <a href="https://support.gravatar.com/your-profile/email-signature/">quick setup guides</a> for Gmail, Apple Mail, and other popular email tools.</p>



<p>Clean, professional, and just a bit fun.</p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading">New Block Pattern for WordPress</h2>



<img width="2880" height="2136" src="https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/02/image-2.png" alt="" class="has-border-color has-contrast-border-color wp-image-2930" />



<p>For WordPress users, we&#8217;ve added a slick new block pattern in the Gravatar Enhanced plugin. </p>



<p>Build beautiful about pages for your company or team in seconds. Each team member&#8217;s Gravatar profile automatically populates their bio section &#8211; no copy-pasting required.</p>



<p>And profiles automatically update when changes are made on Gravatar.</p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading">What&#8217;s Next?</h2>



<p>Keep an eye out for more updates as we continue making Gravatar the best way to represent yourself across the web.</p>



<p>And in case you missed last week&#8217;s update: <a href="https://blog.gravatar.com/2025/02/12/simplify-link-sharing-with-smart-redirects/">custom domain smart redirects are now live</a>!</p>



<p>Want to try these features? Log in to your <a href="https://gravatar.com/profile">Gravatar dashboard</a> or grab the <a href="https://wordpress.org/plugins/gravatar-enhanced/">Gravatar Enhanced</a> plugin for WordPress. </p>



<p>PS: Developers, check out our updated <a href="https://docs.gravatar.com/api/avatars/images/">Avatar docs</a> for implementation details on initials avatars.</p>";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Wed, 19 Feb 2025 17:29:09 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:11:"Ronnie Burt";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:21;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:13:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:109:"WPTavern: #157 – Katie Keith on the Move From Agency Owner to WordPress Theme Development to Plugin Success";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:48:"https://wptavern.com/?post_type=podcast&p=187360";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:123:"https://wptavern.com/podcast/157-katie-keith-on-the-move-from-agency-owner-to-wordpress-theme-development-to-plugin-success";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:49017:"Transcript<div>
<p>[00:00:00] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Welcome to the Jukebox Podcast from WP Tavern. My name is Nathan Wrigley. Jukebox is a podcast</p>



<p>which is dedicated to all things WordPress. The people, the events, the plugins, the blocks, the themes, and in this case, the move from agency owner to WordPress theme development company, and finally to plugin success.</p>



<p>If you&#8217;d like to subscribe to the podcast, you can do that by searching for WP Tavern in your podcast player of choice. Or by going to wptavern.com/feed/podcast, and you can copy that URL into most podcast players.</p>



<p>If you have a topic that you&#8217;d like us to feature on the podcast, I&#8217;m keen to hear from you and hopefully get you, or your idea, featured on the show. Head to wptavern.com/contact/jukebox and use the form there.</p>



<p>So on the podcast today we have Katie Keith.</p>



<p>Katie is a founder and CEO of Barn2 plugins. With a background deeply rooted in WordPress, Katie&#8217;s journey presents an interesting narrative of transformation, from the early days of running a WordPress agency, to now managing a flourishing plugin business Barn2 plugins has a portfolio of 19 premium plugins, many of which extend functionalities inside WooCommerce</p>



<p>Today, Katie previews her upcoming lightning talk, which she&#8217;ll be giving at WordCamp Asia. She talks about the transition from agency work to plugin development, highlighting early challenges and choices that shaped the business&#8217; path.</p>



<p>We get into the initial allure of client projects, and their subsequent realization of the benefits offered by productizing their skills for global reach. Katie describes the decisions that led them to WordPress plugins with products like WooCommerce Protected Categories and Document Library Pro, and explores how customer feedback and market needs drove their product diversification.</p>



<p>As Katie explains, the plugin world wasn&#8217;t without its hurdles. There was trial and error involved in launching new products. This underscores the importance of market research. Additionally, she touches on Barn2&#8217;s current pivot into Shopify apps, aiming for diversification to help ensure that the business has stability by being available across multiple platforms.</p>



<p>Katie investigates the current WordPress and WooCommerce landscape, discussing how she perceives the industry will change, potential growth areas, and the necessity of staying agile.</p>



<p>If you&#8217;re curious about the intricacies of building a plugin business, or are seeking inspiration from someone who has already navigated the WordPress ecosystem, this episode is for you.</p>



<p>If you&#8217;re interested in finding out more, you can find all of the links in the show notes by heading to wptavern.com/podcast, where you&#8217;ll find all the other episodes as well. And so, without further delay, I bring you Katie Keith.</p>



<p>I am joined on the podcast by Katie Keith.</p>



<p>[00:03:29] <strong>Katie Keith:</strong> Hey, Nathan.</p>



<p>[00:03:30] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Very nice to have you on the podcast. Katie and I have met, actually many times in person over at a variety of different WordCamps. This conversation that we&#8217;re going to have today is inspired by a WordCamp, but a WordCamp which hasn&#8217;t taken place yet. Because Katie is heading off to Manila in a few days time to give a lightning talk at WordCamp Asia. Do you just want to, before we get a bio properly, do you want to tell us what you&#8217;re going to talk about and then we&#8217;ll learn more about you?</p>



<p>[00:03:52] <strong>Katie Keith:</strong> Yep. So my talk is going to be a lightning talk about my story, specifically the transition from being a WordPress agency into a WordPress plugin company.</p>



<p>[00:04:03] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Now that&#8217;s the perfect opportunity to give us your little bio. So don&#8217;t reveal all the detail of everything that you want to talk about, but just tell us the one minute potted history of you, WordPress, technology, wherever you want to land with that.</p>



<p>[00:04:16] <strong>Katie Keith:</strong> Yeah, so I&#8217;m Katie Keith, founder and CEO at Barn2 plugins. We are a, as you probably guessed, a plugin shop. We currently have 19 premium plugins, a few free ones, and that&#8217;s about it.</p>



<p>But as we&#8217;ll talk about this more later, we started life as an agency building WordPress sites for clients, and then over the years we&#8217;ve switched into plugins.</p>



<p>We mostly specialise in WooCommerce plugins. So about 14 of our 19 are building extra functionality for WooCommerce. And we&#8217;ve also got a really popular document library plugin, which is not for WooCommerce.</p>



<p>[00:04:54] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Haven&#8217;t you pivoted a little bit in the direction of Shopify as well?</p>



<p>[00:04:57] <strong>Katie Keith:</strong> Yeah, that is in progress. So the current growth strategy is to continue what we&#8217;re doing with the WordPress side of things, and also to diversify into selling Shopify apps so that we are across multiple platforms, and largely as a sort of stability thing, so that we spread any risks. Because we&#8217;re all dependent on WordPress at the moment, which is obviously a good horse to back and always has been. But it feels like it&#8217;s a good idea to be on multiple platforms as well.</p>



<p>[00:05:26] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> So I don&#8217;t know a single person, personally, who began their journey into web development intentionally. That is to say anybody of my era, anybody that wandered into web development when I did, the industry wasn&#8217;t really an industry. It was kind of just beginning. People just did it as a hobby. You know, some friend came along and said, I&#8217;d like a website, well, I can dabble with that. I&#8217;ve heard about websites and I know how to code a little bit of HTML and things like that.</p>



<p>But I&#8217;m wondering if you were more intentional when you began looking around post school, post college, whatever you did. Did you and your husband, I know he was a big part of the business. Did you jump into web development, and you said you were an agency for a while? Did you do that intentionally or was it more, oh, let&#8217;s try our hand at this for a bit?</p>



<p>[00:06:11] <strong>Katie Keith:</strong> It actually was intentional. So, Andy and I spent our twenties with normal jobs, both government type jobs, talking about how we wanted to start a business together, and how much more flexible that would be. How much more our finances could scale if we worked for ourselves. But we just didn&#8217;t have any ideas.</p>



<p>And we talked for years about different ideas and never really saw anything through or had a killer idea. Andy particularly got quite fed up with his job in the civil service in England and we thought, we need to do something. And thought, okay, well, what would combine our skills, and he was a software developer, not really web but software, and I was a project management and marketing person. And so we thought, well, building websites for people actually combines those skills.</p>



<p>He didn&#8217;t want to go into like software consultancy or something because we are from the southwest of England, which is quite rural, and we would probably have had to move to a big city. Remote work wasn&#8217;t such a thing back then, and so we didn&#8217;t really want that lifestyle change.</p>



<p>So he thought, well, maybe he could scale down a bit and learn web development instead of enterprise level software. And then that allows us to run a kind of more small business that we can live where we want to work. And websites need marketing, SEO, copywriting, project management, communication with clients. So that fitted in my skills as well. So, yes, it was intentional having analysed our respective skills and what we could realistically get into.</p>



<p>[00:07:45] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> That&#8217;s really great actually. Looking back, you had the perfect blend of different things there. Maybe a bit of serendipity, but your marketing side, and Andy&#8217;s coding side, that is really the basis of a successful agency business, growing agency business. You need to have the capacity to code, but also to sell it into the marketplace. I mean, how many stories have you heard of people who can code but they can&#8217;t launch a business, because they don&#8217;t have the wherewithal to sell it and drum up business and things like that. So that&#8217;s fascinating.</p>



<p>In the show notes that we shared, one of the things that you said was that you didn&#8217;t quite go in the right direction at the beginning. Well, it turned out that you didn&#8217;t go in the right direction. You went with client websites, building one site, shipping it, launching another, and so on. But that didn&#8217;t turn out to be something that you wanted to maintain. Why was that?</p>



<p>[00:08:30] <strong>Katie Keith:</strong> Yeah, so we thought client websites are a really good way to get started because you don&#8217;t need to invest lots of money, and you just get paid by the project. So if you can get one client that brings in, back then it was like £500 or something, not very much. And then you just keep going and grow slowly. I&#8217;d never really been attracted to the kind of business that you need to put a lot of money into upfront.</p>



<p>I love the program Dragons Den, which is Shark Tank in the US. But I&#8217;ve never wanted that kind of business where you need a lot of investment. So web design, just stick out a few flyers or something in your local, actually, fish and chip shop got us one client. We just put some flyers on the counter and we actually got a website for a local cycling club. Things like that. So you could start small.</p>



<p>So it was a good way to get started. And it was really good because it got us into WordPress. So we didn&#8217;t initially think, let&#8217;s be WordPress specialists. We thought, let&#8217;s build websites. And then Andy started researching the right tools and discovered WordPress and told me about it. I thought it sounded like an awful idea, because he made it sound like a kind of a blogging thing and like, oh, you choose a template for your blog. And I was like, no, we want to build business websites for people. Why are you using this blogging software?</p>



<p>But that was about a year after custom post types came in, and it was becoming a proper platform. It was about 2010 back then. We started specialising in WordPress. And then, to answer your question, at this point, the client work was better than having jobs, but it wasn&#8217;t quite the lifestyle you wanted, in that we wanted more flexibility where we&#8217;re not like on call to clients all the time.</p>



<p>If someone&#8217;s website goes down when you&#8217;re on holiday, you&#8217;ve got to fix it. And we did try to get help, project managers and things. And we did do well getting freelance designers and developers, but we just couldn&#8217;t find anybody that we could trust to communicate with the clients for us. And that really put a limitation on the lifestyle benefits because we were on, mainly me, we&#8217;re on call to clients all the time. So we thought, actually maybe that&#8217;s not the right business model.</p>



<p>[00:10:38] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> You&#8217;re also selling your time for money, and going through that feast famine life cycle where one project is ongoing. And then at what point do you sort of cut that off and say, okay, we need to start looking for the next one, even though we haven&#8217;t quite finished this one. There&#8217;s inevitably going to be some overlap where that all just works out well. And obviously the agencies which grow and scale and become enterprise, they just have that figured somehow.</p>



<p>My experience with that was always that there was a period where you were quite uncertain as to where the next website was going to come from. And you were, like I said, just trading your time for money. And WordPress offers so much more than that. You&#8217;ve got yourself into a kind of global marketplace where you could build a thing and then sell that thing 1,000 times, 10,000 times over, which I guess, where we&#8217;re going next. But you didn&#8217;t go to plugins first. You actually went into themes, which was a bit of a, well, a bit of a dead end it turns out. But tell us about the theme building enterprise.</p>



<p>[00:11:35] <strong>Katie Keith:</strong> Yeah, so because of all those things you&#8217;ve mentioned, selling time for money and the lifestyle thing, we thought selling WordPress products would be a much better business model because it could scale more. You can build one product and then sell it an unlimited number of times in theory, instead of selling one hour for a certain amount of money.</p>



<p>So we thought products are good. And we looked at the products and thought, ah, themes are the way to go. Themes seemed to be a big growth area, well, they were a big growth area. This is 2013.</p>



<p>And when we started work in about 2012 on our first, our only theme, ThemeForest was just growing loads. Plugins existed, but you didn&#8217;t hear about super successful plugin companies particularly. Whereas you could go on ThemeForest and you could see the sales that the big themes were getting, and it was very tempting to be part of that. So we thought, let&#8217;s build a theme. So we did. And it took like a year because of all the demands of client work. So it was just a sideline, building this theme. And then in that year ThemeForest changed, which we didn&#8217;t see coming. ThemeForest changed in the year we were building our theme.</p>



<p>So we&#8217;d analysed the themes that were successful at the time, and they were quite simple. They were nice, designed, often quite bold, clear designs, a bit minimal, and didn&#8217;t have that many features. And then between 2012 and 2013, themes such as uDesign and Avada and that kind of thing became popular. And they were massive multipurpose themes with so many features. And that wasn&#8217;t what we wanted to do. We wanted a product that we could maintain and develop ourselves easily, and it wouldn&#8217;t be this massive headache or anything like that.</p>



<p>So it just wasn&#8217;t what we wanted. And of course, that meant they rejected our theme because it wasn&#8217;t the sort of theme they were looking for. I think they would&#8217;ve accepted it a year before, but they didn&#8217;t when we got actually ready to submit it. So we were like, ah, do we rewrite the theme and make it loads more complicated? Do we sell it independently? And I wasn&#8217;t confident in my ability to market a theme independently, because you&#8217;re competing with the giants. And I didn&#8217;t have experience of that. I wanted to be on a marketplace.</p>



<p>[00:13:51] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> I think back in the day, 2013, like you mentioned, ThemeForest was the place to go for things like that, wasn&#8217;t it? And although I wasn&#8217;t really in the WordPress space, I jumped in after that endeavor. When I got there, ThemeForest was already, basically saturated with themes that could, well, themes that claimed to do more or less everything. You just buy this one theme and it can do everything. Or there was also a dearth of themes which offered a specific kind of functionality, like a real estate, or you might say, realtor theme, or a portfolio theme or, I don&#8217;t know, I&#8217;m a gym owner, I need a theme for my gym.</p>



<p>Kind of felt like it went in that direction, but it seems like you were trying to build something which was more agnostic of industry. It was just a, here&#8217;s the bare bones of a theme, you now go and do the artistic work. But yeah, like you say, ThemeForest was going off in a different direction.</p>



<p>So what happened there? Was it a case of staring at each other and saying, okay, what do we do? Do we try to pivot this theme? Or did you just at some point say, no, abandon it.</p>



<p>[00:14:51] <strong>Katie Keith:</strong> We were fairly depressed and disappointed and just gave up for a few years. So we carried on with the client work, which was going fine. We had a successful business that was keeping us both going. We didn&#8217;t need to do products. So we just continued with the client work.</p>



<p>[00:15:08] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Okay, so steady away. And then what was the moment where you, kind of had the revelation about plugins? Because, again, coming into the WordPress space, 2015, something like that, plugins and themes were already selling like hotcakes. I don&#8217;t really know about the period in which plugins was a bit new, a bit maybe dangerous, a bit, putting your business on the line with plugins. Maybe that was a tough one back then, I don&#8217;t know.</p>



<p>[00:15:30] <strong>Katie Keith:</strong> By the time it got to 2016, I supppose frustrations accumulate over time. So we were again like, oh, the client works just kind of annoying. It&#8217;s not quite flexible enough, and it&#8217;s not scaling enough, it&#8217;s just going up a little bit. So we need to do products. What shall we do again?</p>



<p>And this time we thought, well, plugins could work because unlike these massive multipurpose themes, a plugin can be really tiny or it can be incredibly complex. A plugin can just be a line of code, you know, as an extreme minimum. So we thought, well, that way we can choose products that fit with the scale that we want to offer technically. I hated the idea of a big theme or a massive plugin because you kind of end up being responsible for basically the user&#8217;s whole website.</p>



<p>So imagine if somebody&#8217;s using a theme which takes over their whole site, and it affects every aspect of the visuals. They&#8217;re going to send you a support ticket for everything, even if it&#8217;s not the theme&#8217;s fault. And then you are going to have to prove it&#8217;s not the theme&#8217;s fault. And we just thought that&#8217;s not sustainable.</p>



<p>And I think the same would happen with really large plugins like, I don&#8217;t know, a membership plugin or an e-commerce plugin or something thing like that. So we thought, well, we are just the two of us, plus our freelancers, so let&#8217;s choose a more realistic plugin idea and build it and see what happens.</p>



<p>[00:16:54] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> So you always had the agency, the client based websites. That was the backup plan. Always something to fall back on if the plugin business didn&#8217;t work out. You took the plunge. What was the first plugin that you came up with?</p>



<p>[00:17:07] <strong>Katie Keith:</strong> So the first plugin, we found by going on a website, which used to exist, which was the WooCommerce Ideas Forum. They used to have a whole website where people just gave ideas and, basically feature request board. But they have that now if people want to look, but I think it&#8217;s per extension instead of a whole thing for WooCommerce. So you access it differently and it&#8217;s hard to find. But there was this whole website.</p>



<p>So we went on this and you can sort it by the number of votes for each suggestion. And we chose an idea which had the highest number of votes that wasn&#8217;t that complex to build, which was WooCommerce password protected categories, which is very specific.</p>



<p>[00:17:47] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> That&#8217;s a great title, I like that.</p>



<p>[00:17:48] <strong>Katie Keith:</strong> Yeah, nice and snappy. WordPress itself already has password protection for its posts and pages, but not categories, and therefore WooCommerce doesn&#8217;t have it for its categories either. And people were saying that they wanted it for things like building a wholesale site, or selling different products to different clients.</p>



<p>If you imagine that you sell products to sports teams and they each have a logo, so the product&#8217;s different for each team, you might create a protected category for that team to log in and order their branded sportswear. Those sorts of use cases. And we thought, well, that&#8217;s quite simple. You just add a category field to the page and a few other features like login and things.</p>



<p>So we built the plugin. It wasn&#8217;t that difficult, and we launched it. And because it was unique and I was a marketer, I wrote a few blog posts about it, like how to password protect categories in WooCommerce, really niche posts. They went right to the top of Google because you could then, and there was nobody else offering that. And we actually started getting sales after about three days. And we were like, we are getting sales for our plugin and we couldn&#8217;t believe it.</p>



<p>[00:18:57] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> That is quite remarkable because I know the story is harder now than ever. That story is very hard to replicate because, you know, the market is saturated.</p>



<p>But just going back to your actual plugin, realistically, when you built that and you saw that idea, okay, we&#8217;re going to password protect a category, and it will impact WooCommerce, so I don&#8217;t know, we could send it to company A and the category will be A, and they can access it with a password, and we&#8217;ll send it to company B, and the category will be B and they can access it and so on.</p>



<p>Honestly, what was your expectation at that point? Because coming into the community, it&#8217;s hard to understand, how big is WordPress? And then the layer underneath that, how big is the plugin which sits inside of WordPress, WooCommerce, how big is that? And then we&#8217;ve got this niche little one, just does one tiny thing. Honestly, what were your expectations?</p>



<p>[00:19:44] <strong>Katie Keith:</strong> Very low. It was an experiment. It wasn&#8217;t a huge amount of work. Basically, Andy stopped doing some agency work for a while, and I relied on the freelance developers a bit more while he coded it. It wasn&#8217;t a big sacrifice for us to build it, and we didn&#8217;t have any kind of a business plan or projections or anything. It was just, let&#8217;s launch a small plugin and see what happens.</p>



<p>And we were amazed. And it still exists now. It&#8217;s now called WooCommerce Protected Categories because it has different ways of protecting the category, not just passwords, like user role and that kind of thing. And it actually, a few months ago it met half a million dollars in revenue lifetime. So that tiny idea has done half a million dollars in 8 years.</p>



<p>[00:20:30] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> So how quickly did that money start to roll in? And so it doesn&#8217;t have to be about money, the amount of, I don&#8217;t know, plugin licenses that you sold or whatever it may be. But how quickly did your intuition turn to, oh, there is really something in this? Like you mentioned you got a sale or two within two or three days, which is exciting. But obviously if it then just sort of trickled along one or two a week, it is exciting, but it&#8217;s not that exciting.</p>



<p>And what was the point where you and Andy started to look at each other and think, woah, we could potentially forget all the agency work if we now pivot into this? How long did it take you to make those decisions?</p>



<p>[00:21:03] <strong>Katie Keith:</strong> Yeah, because that was just pocket money, the first sales. It was just nice because it&#8217;s an indication that it could work. So that kept growing. And we also launched other plugins as well. Like our second one came from a client project.</p>



<p>The client paid us to build a custom plugin, which was a searchable, sortable table of blog posts for their blog. So they had hundreds of blog posts and they wanted a more easy way for people to find them. So we built this table plugin, and we launched it on wordpress.org as a free plugin called Post Table with Search and Sort. So that&#8217;s just as good a name as WooCommerce Password Protected Category.</p>



<p>[00:21:40] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Got the SEO juice going there, definitely.</p>



<p>[00:21:43] <strong>Katie Keith:</strong> Oh yeah, it does what it says. So that was a free plugin, but that led to a lot of sales because people started sending us feature requests once it was on wordpress.org.</p>



<p>So the first ones wanted custom fields, custom taxonomies, and custom post types, rather than just blog posts in their table. So they might want to create like a table of documents or members for a directory of consultants or something like that, like custom post types and data. So we built Post Table Pro, which was the premium version, and that&#8217;s done really well.</p>



<p>And then people started asking for even more features, which we used to develop different plugins. So we built WooCommerce Product Table, which is a WooCommerce version of that table, which has things like add to cart buttons and variation dropdowns.</p>



<p>And so that cluster of plugins that came from this free table plugin is what really kind of catapulted the success. So that within about six months of launching our first plugin we were making, I don&#8217;t know, several thousand dollars a month. And we thought, given that we have some revenue from clients like maintenance and hosting, so our existing clients were paying us for certain things, we can afford to stop taking new projects, and therefore put more resources into building more plugins, and improving our existing ones, and marketing them, of course. So it was about six months that we decided, let&#8217;s stop accepting new client projects.</p>



<p>[00:23:13] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> So the plugin that you just mentioned there, the sorting of the tables, it sounds like you got that out of a client project. So it was actually a client that came to you. We need this idea and, okay, we&#8217;ll build that. But then the back of that is, can we then take that code and run with it? Which you did. And then you&#8217;ve got the pro version, which adds in a bunch of different features. And now you&#8217;ve got two plugins and a third one came on quite quickly. We&#8217;re six months in, and the dollar signs are starting to make sense.</p>



<p>You can see that, okay, there&#8217;s a living in this. We&#8217;ll take our foot off the client websites, but we&#8217;ll keep it going just in case something goes wrong. So I&#8217;m presuming though, at this point you are all guns aimed at, we need more plugins, more and more and more plugins. And so when did it become, okay, let&#8217;s just go in on Woo? How did you end up as Woo as opposed to just WordPress?</p>



<p>[00:23:59] <strong>Katie Keith:</strong> We never did. Our biggest plugin now is Document Library Pro, which is not Woo, and that came from Post Table Pro as well. The biggest use case of Post Table Pro ended up being documents. So we built a document plugin that had download buttons and previews and stuff that&#8217;s specific to documents. Again, it&#8217;s just a table plugin, and that has been our biggest seller for the last three or four years since we launched it.</p>



<p>So because of the success of that and Post Table Pro, we never could actually just be WooCommerce. So we are not like, say Iconic, who specialise in WooCommerce, that&#8217;s all they do.</p>



<p>So we have this reputation of being WooCommerce. And I wish we were actually. Obviously I like having a successful plugin, but I wish that we had that clear identity because it&#8217;s, like I explained the business at the beginning in the introduction, I&#8217;m like, oh, we have these plugins, they&#8217;re mostly WooCommerce. It is not as clean as it could be.</p>



<p>[00:24:56] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Sitting where you are now, and we can get into the numbers of how many plugins and all of that that you&#8217;ve got. Have you made any missteps with, like has any plugin that you&#8217;ve built misfired completely? You thought this would be a great idea, let&#8217;s build it, let&#8217;s market it. But then you build it and the customers do not come. Or has every single one had a fair degree of, they don&#8217;t all have to be super successful, but has everything stood on its own two feet and been worth doing?</p>



<p>[00:25:20] <strong>Katie Keith:</strong> It depends how you define success. But it&#8217;s largely relative. So if you&#8217;re doing one plugin that&#8217;s doing X a month, then if you have one that&#8217;s much smaller, that&#8217;s not necessarily worth it.</p>



<p>I would say my biggest mistake, repeatedly, has been thinking too small. So I have a very bad track record of building plugins that are too small and too niche to be worth bothering with. Lots of examples.</p>



<p>One example was WooCommerce Discontinued Products. So that adds a discontinued stock status to your store. We built it because we were hiring some new senior developers and we were doing a project for these developers. Before we hired them, we were paying them to build a small plugin to check how good they were. And we thought, well, the ones we hired, we may as well release their plugin. So we did.</p>



<p>We did WooCommerce Variation Prices, Discontinued Products. We had multiple plugins that were just trial projects for the developer, but they were good. And their first project after they joined properly was to complete the plugin, and make it sellable. But that&#8217;s a lot of work. You&#8217;ve got to create all the marketing images, the marketing content, the sales page, market it.</p>



<p>Each plugin has an overhead as well as maintaining it. And so with hindsight, I shouldn&#8217;t have released all of those small plugins. And we actually sold five of our plugins last year to a WooCommerce company called Kestrel, because we had 24 at the time, and it was just too many. And I did an 80 20 rule analysis of the business and how much revenue was coming from each plugin. And that cluster of five were all doing, they were all doing at least several hundreds a month, but generally less than a thousand a month.</p>



<p>And compared to our other plugins, that was a small proportion. So I thought, let&#8217;s group these plugins and sell them to a company who would appreciate and grow them more, where that fits better with their business plan.</p>



<p>[00:27:17] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Are you still on the lookout for new ideas? Or do you want to just hunker down on the ones that you&#8217;ve got? In other words, do you constantly ideate and think, let&#8217;s find a new thing or is it more serendipity? You accidentally stumble across an idea, we should build that, and so we do. Or do you deliberately try, in the same way that you did previously going to the WooCommerce forum, do you try to find new products to build and see how they work?</p>



<p>[00:27:41] <strong>Katie Keith:</strong> I suppose a bit of both depending on our current priorities. So for example, in 2024 last year, that&#8217;s when we sold the five plugins. And I thought, we&#8217;ve got a handful of really successful plugins, we need to put our resources into making them as good as they can be to maximise their potential sales.</p>



<p>So for example, instead we did launch one plugin last year, our WooCommerce Discount Plugin, but we were already building that when I made this decision. So once I made that decision, I put all our developers on adding features to our existing plugins, including some really big features.</p>



<p>For example, we have a WooCommerce Product Options plugin, which adds extra options to your product pages. And dozens and dozens and dozens of people were saying to us, we want live image previews. So when you use our plugin to upload an image to the product page, we want that to appear superimposed on a picture of the T-shirt, for example. So if you upload your picture of your child, that will appear on the T-shirt.</p>



<p>And that was a big project. So we could have built a completely different plugin, but instead we added live preview. We actually did it as an add-on, so it&#8217;s sort of an extra plugin, but it&#8217;s dependent on the main plugin, and things like that. So we thought, what&#8217;s working and how could we make what&#8217;s working even more successful? But I do have a list of plugin ideas for the future.</p>



<p>[00:29:06] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> So there&#8217;s a laundry list of things that you might build, but the priorities are not to build them all right away? Just see how the market goes. Speaking of that, speaking of the market, you&#8217;re obviously heavily embedded in WordPress, heavily embedded in WooCommerce. What do you make of the landscape at the moment?</p>



<p>You&#8217;re obviously beginning to pitch into Shopify a little bit as well, and I imagine you&#8217;re at pains to say we&#8217;re not taking our foot off the WordPress pedal. How do you feel the landscape is shaping up in 2025? It does seem like things are plateauing a little bit in terms of market share for WordPress, whether or not they&#8217;ll go up or down. How confident are you in the future? Is it still WordPress all the way down?</p>



<p>[00:29:42] <strong>Katie Keith:</strong> I certainly don&#8217;t think WordPress is going anywhere, and it probably won&#8217;t shrink a lot, if at all. But I also don&#8217;t feel that we are having a rising tide that we can all ride the journey upwards like we used to. For example, in 2020 when everybody was locked down, there was huge growth for nearly all WordPress companies, because the world was going online so rapidly and we had a huge, huge growth very quickly.</p>



<p>And then since then it has slowed down. The growth has slowed down and now seems fairly stable. Stable is a good word, but it&#8217;s not really growing in a particularly measurable way. And you could argue that that is just a correction because it went up so much, so quickly during the pandemic that maybe it just took a few years to get back to where it would&#8217;ve done if there was no pandemic.</p>



<p>So if you imagine a steep line rather than a big bump followed by a plateau. So you could argue that. But it feels like we have to work harder than we used to to see growth, and make that happen through our own efforts, rather than just relying on a growing market.</p>



<p>[00:30:48] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> So obviously that would be nice if WordPress could keep going in that same way. What about Woo? Obviously we were just talking about WordPress. I don&#8217;t really involve myself with Woo so much, so I don&#8217;t really know what the statistics are. I know that in terms of e-commerce platforms, it&#8217;s the leader, but I don&#8217;t know if that&#8217;s sort of going up or going down. You got any insight in that?</p>



<p>[00:31:07] <strong>Katie Keith:</strong> It is very confusing because it depends where you look. So there&#8217;s two main websites that publish data about e-commerce usage, and one of them says WooCommerce is the leader and the other says Shopify is. And they use slightly different data sets. For example, the top X websites in the world, versus the whole internet, versus a sample of a million, which they use to extrapolate upwards.</p>



<p>So there are different ways of looking at the data. So I genuinely don&#8217;t know, there probably is no correct answer, which is the biggest e-commerce platform, but they&#8217;re both doing really well and neither are going anywhere. So that&#8217;s why it felt that it made sense for us to be building products for both.</p>



<p>I think WooCommerce is really interesting because it has a good reputation. It has, I think the best leadership team around it that I&#8217;ve seen in the 8 years I&#8217;ve been building plugins on top of it right now. But I wish they would do more marketing. They&#8217;re not promoting their platform in the way that say Shopify is, and that scares me. I would like to see them doing more centralised marketing.</p>



<p>They&#8217;re a company, they make money from WooCommerce, even though it&#8217;s free. They have extensions, they have revenue sharing from their Stripe and they have lots of ways of making money, which they&#8217;ve recently talked about publicly. And so I&#8217;d like them to be doing some proper marketing like Shopify does.</p>



<p>[00:32:29] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> It is interesting, I know you no longer live in the UK. I do, and it doesn&#8217;t take many trips down high streets to realise that the high street is really in decline. You only have to walk down one street in more or less any town to realise that the shutters are going up, the wood is going over the doors, bricks and mortar shops are really struggling.</p>



<p>And it&#8217;s this inexorable rise. I can only imagine that, well, people are still buying things, but they&#8217;re buying things increasingly on the internet. My age group, I imagine has been fairly straightforward, because we grew up when the internet was coming around. Children that are growing up now, I think they&#8217;re really just not interested in doing things like going into town in a sort of social way like I did. So I imagine that eCommerce&#8217;s future, just generally e-commerce, platform agnostic, you&#8217;ve got to imagine its got everything going for it, I would&#8217;ve thought.</p>



<p>[00:33:24] <strong>Katie Keith:</strong> Yeah, that makes sense. And we often look at things like market share data, but that&#8217;s just a percentage. So even if WordPress&#8217; market, or let&#8217;s say WooCommerce&#8217;s market share did go down at some point, if the whole of e-commerce was growing, then WooCommerce could still be growing. And it doesn&#8217;t really matter so much if it&#8217;s smaller percentage, if the whole cake is bigger.</p>



<p>So I think that&#8217;s the case. And you do see quite regularly published e-commerce data about, particularly after Black Friday, like the most revenue ever went through e-commerce sites this Black Friday. And it does seem to be constantly growing. And I think that is primarily through websites. A lot of people are buying through apps, of course, instead of websites, particularly something like Amazon or even Temu or something these days. But I think e-commerce websites are still huge and I can&#8217;t see that changing.</p>



<p>[00:34:15] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> No, because in most of the towns that I&#8217;ve visited where I can see this, the big, we call them department stores in the UK. An example might be something like Marks &amp; Spencer. They&#8217;ve got a branch in more or less every town. You kind of feel that they&#8217;re immune. They&#8217;ve got their online bit as well, so they&#8217;ve probably inoculated themselves in that way. They&#8217;ve just got so much kudos, and so much loyalty built in that you feel they might be immune for a period of time.</p>



<p>But all of the little shops, the little jeweler, the little corner shop selling a thing that they build, whatever it may be, you kind of feel they are going to struggle because the footfall is less. They really do fit into what you sell. I&#8217;m reasonably technical, but I can&#8217;t build, I can&#8217;t code, I can&#8217;t do any of that, so I need a solution.</p>



<p>I think the future for WooCommerce and the kind of things that you create and sell, I think the future&#8217;s really bright because I see that market just going up and up. The younger people are going to be wanting to use their devices because they&#8217;re all really fascinated by them, everybody&#8217;s got a mobile phone nowadays. The footfall is sort of falling away, and it all seems like a perfect storm for e-commerce to grow. I could be being overly optimistic there, but it feels like it&#8217;s fair weather for the next decade or so.</p>



<p>[00:35:26] <strong>Katie Keith:</strong> Yeah, I know what you mean. And it&#8217;s a good example to use those small shops because even if they keep their storefront, which probably isn&#8217;t profitable, they should be selling online. And small shops, they&#8217;ve got a few choices, that could be WooCommerce. That might be harder to set up in the first place, they might need to hire someone. But then their costs are super, super low compared to most platforms.</p>



<p>They could go for Shopify, which is slightly reversed in that sense. Or they could use something like Etsy if they&#8217;re a jeweller, to use your example. So there&#8217;s lots of ways for them to sell online, but they do need to be thinking of it for their survival because of the decline of things like the high street, as you say.</p>



<p>[00:36:03] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, I think so. Looking back, again, just casting your mind back to 2013 when you began all of this. Do you think that you were lucky when you decided to pivot into making plugins? What I&#8217;m really saying is, if you were beginning now in 2025, everything was the same, it was just 12 years later, 2013 to 2025. Do you think you&#8217;d have the same degree of success with the exact same kind of approach to it?</p>



<p>Basically, has the market got harder, more saturated, more difficult to sell into, more savvy? Anything around there. Do you feel, basically, you were lucky in terms of timing?</p>



<p>[00:36:38] <strong>Katie Keith:</strong> I think to an extent. I don&#8217;t believe it&#8217;s fully saturated yet, but it is more full than it was when we started. So when we started, there were no WooCommerce protected category plugins, there were no WordPress dynamic table plugins, there were no document library plugins, there were no product table plugins for WooCommerce.</p>



<p>So we managed to do that because those were gaps. Now they&#8217;re not. And now we&#8217;ve done successful plugins in those categories people have copied. So we have competition now, which came along after we launched. So those are no longer gaps. But I do firmly believe that there are still gaps that you can fill.</p>



<p>And the way to find them is through already being in WordPress in some way, which most typically is through building sites for clients, or doing some kind of client work. Because they will always find a gap and ask you to fill it through a custom plugin or something like that. So if you concentrate hard enough on the client work that you&#8217;re getting, you probably will find gaps.</p>



<p>And if you find something that doesn&#8217;t already exist, then yes, you could get to the top of Google quickly for a very specific keyword. Of course, WordPress and WooCommerce are much bigger now than they were in 2016 when we launched our first plugin. So even if it&#8217;s slightly more diluted with competition, the market is bigger. So there is potential now you&#8217;re a part of a bigger market.</p>



<p>[00:38:03] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> So last question really, Katie. Do you see WordPress being the thing for you and your husband, the business you are going to pursue for the next decade or so, or do you think you will be scrambling around for more opportunities in the Shopify space? I don&#8217;t know, other CMSs, pivot completely, who knows? What does the future hold? What&#8217;s the next decade looking like from where you sit right now?</p>



<p>[00:38:24] <strong>Katie Keith:</strong> I must admit, I&#8217;m not very good at long-term planning. I just do what feels right for the short and medium term.</p>



<p>[00:38:31] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> It&#8217;s worked.</p>



<p>[00:38:32] <strong>Katie Keith:</strong> Well, yeah, exactly. Does it matter? You do something and then you focus on what works and learn and keep iterating. I think that&#8217;s why I haven&#8217;t created, I don&#8217;t know, hundreds of million dollar worth business because I&#8217;m not a visionary that has this long-term view that I&#8217;ll do anything to make it happen.</p>



<p>Instead, I try something and keep learning, which has created a successful business, but in a more steady growth kind of way. So I&#8217;d rather be that visionary, but I&#8217;m not. It&#8217;s hard to know personally. I think you wanted to talk about the fact that my husband left the business about 8 months ago now. He&#8217;d lost his passion for it and wanted to reflect on other things he could do for the rest of his career, which he&#8217;s still doing.</p>



<p>So I&#8217;m now running it on my own and he owns half of it, so that might affect the future. We talked about whether he should sell his share, for example, at the time, and he decided, oh, WordPress is growing so nicely, it&#8217;s so stable, he&#8217;ll leave his money in the business.</p>



<p>Well, since then there&#8217;s been all this drama, so we are thinking, was that the right call? Should we get some money out?</p>



<p>But I love what I do and want to stay doing what I&#8217;m doing for the foreseeable future. But we could do something like take on a partner or investment or something if Andy wants to, say, invest his half elsewhere. So there&#8217;s that, which might affect our future.</p>



<p>[00:39:54] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Oh gosh, that&#8217;s interesting. So, you heard here first. If people wanted to get in touch with you, Katie, not necessarily about taking on half the business or anything like that, but they&#8217;re just curious about what we&#8217;ve talked about today, or anything else related to WooCommerce plugins, et cetera, where would you be hanging out online? Is that a social network or an email? What&#8217;s the best thing?</p>



<p>[00:40:15] <strong>Katie Keith:</strong> So for company stuff, it&#8217;s Barn2.com to check out our plugins and so on. And for me, the most active place that I am would be Twitter, which is katiekeithbarn2.</p>



<p>[00:40:27] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> So Katie Keith, I appreciate you chatting to me today. Thank you so much and every success for 2025 and beyond. Thank you.</p>



<p>[00:40:34] <strong>Katie Keith:</strong> Thanks for having me.</p>
</div>



<p>On the podcast today we have <a href="https://x.com/katiekeithbarn2">Katie Keith</a>.</p>



<p>Katie is a founder and CEO of <a href="https://barn2.com/">Barn2 Plugins</a>. With a background deeply rooted in WordPress, Katie&#8217;s journey presents an interesting narrative of transformation, from the early days of running a WordPress agency, to now managing a flourishing plugin business. Barn2 plugins has a portfolio of 19 premium plugins, many of which extend functionalities in WooCommerce.</p>



<p>Today, Katie previews her upcoming lightning talk which she’ll be giving at WordCamp Asia. She talks about the transition from agency work to plugin development, highlighting early challenges and choices that shaped the business’ path.</p>



<p>We get into the initial allure of client projects and their subsequent realisation of the benefits offered by productising their skills for global reach. Katie describes the decisions that led them to WordPress plugins, with products like WooCommerce Protected Categories and Document Library Pro, and explores how customer feedback and market needs drove their product diversification.</p>



<p>As Katie explains, the plugin world wasn’t without its hurdles. There was trial and error involved in launching new products. This underscored the importance of market research. Additionally, she touches on Barn2&#8217;s current pivot into Shopify apps, aiming for diversification to help ensure that the business has stability by being available across multiple platforms.</p>



<p>Katie investigates the current WordPress and WooCommerce landscape, discussing how she perceives the industry will change, potential growth areas, and the necessity of staying agile.</p>



<p>If you’re curious about the intricacies of building a plugin business, or are seeking inspiration from someone who has already navigated the WordPress ecosystem, this episode is for you.</p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading">Useful links</h2>



<p><a href="https://barn2.com/">Barn2 website</a></p>



<p><a href="https://www.shopify.com/">Shopify</a></p>



<p><a href="https://themeforest.net/">Themeforest</a></p>



<p><a href="https://iconicwp.com/">Iconic website</a></p>



<p><a href="https://x.com/katiekeithbarn2">Katie&#8217;s X profile</a></p>";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Wed, 19 Feb 2025 15:00:00 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:14:"Nathan Wrigley";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:22;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:13:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:99:"Do The Woo Community: Why You Shouldn’t Miss WP:25: A Virtual Deep Dive into Enterprise WordPress";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:43:"https://dothewoo.io/?post_type=blog&p=91213";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:98:"https://dothewoo.io/blog/why-you-shouldnt-miss-wp25-a-virtual-deep-dive-into-enterprise-wordpress/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:194:"WP:25 is a virtual event by Human Made discussing the future of WordPress in the enterprise sector, featuring keynotes, panel discussions, and insights for developers, freelancers, and agencies.";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Wed, 19 Feb 2025 13:29:00 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:5:"BobWP";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:23;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:13:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:94:"Do The Woo Community: Enterprise WordPress 2025: AI Tools, CMS Strategies, and Roadmap Updates";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:28:"https://dothewoo.io/?p=90729";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:90:"https://dothewoo.io/enterprise-wordpress-2025-ai-tools-cms-strategies-and-roadmap-updates/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:219:"In this episode, the hosts discuss the future of enterprise WordPress in 2025, focusing on AI advancements, multi-CMS strategies, security concerns, and upcoming features like full-site editing and multilingual support.";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Wed, 19 Feb 2025 10:07:02 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:5:"BobWP";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:24;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:13:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:67:"Do The Woo Community: Do the Woo Hooks, Tips You Can Take Action On";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:43:"https://dothewoo.io/?post_type=blog&p=91193";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:70:"https://dothewoo.io/blog/do-the-woo-hooks-tips-you-can-take-action-on/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:98:"It's official. Introducing Do the Woo Hooks with tips from our community of builders and creators.";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Tue, 18 Feb 2025 21:00:00 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:5:"BobWP";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:25;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:13:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:81:"Do The Woo Community: Decisions, Partners, and Pricing. A Chat with Nathan Tyler.";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:28:"https://dothewoo.io/?p=90640";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:76:"https://dothewoo.io/decisions-partners-and-pricing-a-chat-with-nathan-tyler/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:247:"In this episode of Woo BizChat, Nathan Tyler discusses crucial business decisions for plugin and SaaS owners, covering pricing strategies, customer support, partnerships, and transitioning from services to product development for sustained growth.";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Tue, 18 Feb 2025 10:30:00 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:5:"BobWP";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:26;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:13:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:21:"Matt: Sun and shadows";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:38:"https://ma.tt/2025/02/sun-and-shadows/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:38:"https://ma.tt/2025/02/sun-and-shadows/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:133:"<img width="604" height="702" src="https://i0.wp.com/ma.tt/files/2025/02/image.jpg?resize=604%2C702&ssl=1" class="wp-image-137931" />";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Tue, 18 Feb 2025 01:06:58 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:4:"Matt";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:27;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:13:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:68:"Gravatar: How to Be Better at Networking: Leverage Existing Contacts";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:32:"http://blog.gravatar.com/?p=2864";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:68:"https://blog.gravatar.com/2025/02/17/how-to-be-better-at-networking/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:11047:"<p>Did you know that <a href="https://images.forbes.com/forbesinsights/StudyPDFs/Business_Meetings_FaceToFace.pdf">85% of people build stronger business relationships</a> through in-person networking compared to online? That sounds promising, but the reality is that many professionals still struggle to turn brief connections into meaningful career opportunities. Networking can feel overwhelming, especially for those who face social anxiety or find traditional approaches too transactional.</p>



<p>The good news? <strong>Building genuine relationships doesn’t have to feel like a chore.</strong> By focusing on leveraging the contacts you already have and combining practical strategies with powerful digital tools, networking can become both effective and enjoyable.</p>



<p>This guide will walk you through actionable tips to help you maximize your current network, rekindle dormant connections, and stand out with tools like Gravatar, a <a href="https://blog.gravatar.com/2024/11/08/creating-a-digital-business-card/">digital business card</a> that keeps your professional presence consistent and memorable.&nbsp;</p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Turn connections into lasting professional relationships</strong></h2>



<p>Here&#8217;s a counterintuitive truth about networking: <strong>your most valuable professional connections might be people you haven&#8217;t spoken to in years. </strong>While most of us focus on maintaining active relationships or making new ones, <a href="https://www.researchgate.net/publication/220520957_Dormant_Ties_The_Value_Of_Reconnecting">research from Organization Science</a> reveals that reconnecting with dormant contacts often yields greater benefits than relying on current ties. These forgotten connections – rich with untapped potential and fresh perspectives – could be the key to your next career breakthrough.</p>



<p>So, what can you do to take advantage of those?&nbsp;</p>



<ul class="wp-block-list">
<li><strong>Start by conducting a </strong><a href="https://blog.gravatar.com/2024/06/16/how-to-network-at-a-conference/"><strong>network audit</strong></a><strong>.</strong> List your contacts and assess which connections may have gone inactive but still hold relevance. Using tools like Gravatar, you can revitalize your professional presence by ensuring your contact details and digital profiles are updated. This unified presence boosts credibility and simplifies re-engagement.</li>



<li><strong>When reaching out, avoid generic follow-ups.</strong> Instead, build on shared professional interests or reference past collaborations to create meaningful touchpoints. For example, share an article or idea relevant to their industry. Crafting a strong elevator pitch is essential here – it’s your opportunity to leave a lasting impression when reconnecting.</li>



<li><strong>Finally, don’t let </strong><a href="https://hbr.org/2022/05/if-networking-makes-you-anxious-try-this"><strong>networking anxiety</strong></a><strong> hold you back.</strong> It’s normal to feel nervous, but simple techniques like visualization and scripting your conversations in advance can ease those worries​. With practice and intentionality, reconnecting with dormant ties can transform them into enduring professional relationships.</li>
</ul>



<h3 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Making authentic follow-ups that get responses</strong></h3>



<p>Imagine reconnecting with an old colleague. During your initial call, you discuss a mutual interest in emerging industry trends, such as AI-powered customer insights. A week later, you follow up by sharing a report on the topic, along with a thoughtful note: “Our chat inspired me to dive deeper into this – thought you’d find it interesting too.” This kind of personalized follow-up shows genuine interest and keeps the conversation alive.</p>



<p>Sharing relevant industry insights or opportunities is a simple but powerful way to create value. It positions you as someone who contributes rather than merely seeks help. For example, sending an article that aligns with their current projects or highlighting a conference they might enjoy can make you memorable.</p>



<p><strong>If starting these conversations feels daunting, practice a few </strong><a href="https://www.themuse.com/advice/30-brilliant-networking-conversation-starters"><strong>go-to openers</strong></a><strong>. </strong>Questions like, “What inspired you to attend this event?” or “What’s been the most exciting project you’ve worked on recently?” are engaging and natural​. You can also keep it light and personal with openers like, “Have you been to this venue before?” or “What’s your favorite part about working in this industry?”</p>



<p><strong>When reconnecting via email or LinkedIn, make your opener personal and specific. </strong>A great example could be referencing a shared memory: “I was just thinking about the project we worked on together back in 2018 – still one of the most innovative teams I’ve been a part of!” These thoughtful touches can make the difference between a generic interaction and one that leads to a meaningful, lasting connection.</p>



<h3 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Using Gravatar to stay memorable after meetings</strong></h3>



<img width="1397" height="716" src="https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/gravatar-new-homepage-1.png" alt="The Gravatar homepage" class="wp-image-2867" />



<p><a href="https://gravatar.com/">Gravatar</a> offers an easy way to leave a lasting impression after professional meetings. By creating a unified digital profile, Gravatar ensures that your contact information and portfolio remain accessible and automatically updated across platforms like <a href="https://wordpress.com/">WordPress</a>, <a href="https://github.com/">GitHub</a>, and <a href="https://slack.com/">Slack</a>.&nbsp;</p>



<img width="1421" height="985" src="https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/ronnie-gravatar-profile-3.png" alt="Example of a Gravatar profile" class="wp-image-2868" />



<p>But the standout feature for networking? <strong>QR codes.</strong></p>



<p>Gravatar enables users to generate personalized QR codes linked directly to their profiles. Imagine this: You’re wrapping up a productive meeting, and instead of fumbling for a physical business card, you share your Gravatar QR code. Scanning it instantly provides your connection with access to your contact details, social links, and a dynamic calendar link for easy follow-ups​.</p>



<p>The code itself is hidden behind your Gravatar profile picture and to see it, you just need to click the little icon on the top right corner.&nbsp;</p>



<img width="1474" height="974" src="https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/gravatar-qr-code.png" alt="Example of profile QR code" class="wp-image-2869" />



<p>However, if you’re a developer, you could even <a href="https://docs.gravatar.com/api/profiles/qr-codes/">customize the QR code</a> by adjusting its size and style, and even include your avatar or logo at its center. The codes can be embedded on name tags, event lanyards, or even digital signatures, making them a versatile tool for any networking scenario that includes <a href="https://blog.gravatar.com/2024/08/02/organizational-benefits-of-efficient-contact-sharing/">contact sharing​</a>.</p>



<p>This not only saves time but also positions you as tech-savvy and organized – qualities that help you stand out. With a Gravatar profile and QR code, staying memorable is as easy as a quick scan.</p>



<a href="https://gravatar.com/connect/?gravatar_from=blog"><img width="3243" height="729" src="https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/free_profile_cta.png" alt="" class="wp-image-2616" /></a>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Stand out at conferences: Strategies and digital tools for real-world networking</strong></h2>



<p>Industry conferences often bring together professionals from all stages of your career – making them perfect opportunities to reconnect with dormant contacts and forge new relationships. Here&#8217;s how to maximize these moments:</p>



<h3 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Before the conference</strong></h3>



<ul class="wp-block-list">
<li>Review the attendee list for former colleagues and new people you’d like to connect with.</li>



<li>Use LinkedIn to identify which of these people (old and new contacts) will be speaking or attending.</li>



<li>Plan your schedule around sessions where you&#8217;re likely to encounter these contacts.</li>
</ul>



<h3 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>During the conference</strong></h3>



<ul class="wp-block-list">
<li>Use Gravatar&#8217;s QR code on your name tag with a note like &#8220;Worked at [Previous Company] 2018-2020&#8221; to help former colleagues recognize you.</li>



<li>After reconnecting, use <a href="https://www.linkedin.com/help/linkedin/answer/a554240">LinkedIn Live</a> to host quick session recaps, tagging relevant colleagues and attendees to maintain engagement.</li>



<li>Log reconnections in CRM tools like <a href="https://www.hubspot.com/products/crm">HubSpot</a> or <a href="https://www.zoho.com/">Zoho</a>, noting shared history and current interests. Then, you can set reminders to follow up with a personalized email a week later.</li>
</ul>



<h3 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Post-conference follow-up</strong></h3>



<ul class="wp-block-list">
<li>Use <a href="https://zapier.com/">Zapier</a> to automate personalized follow-ups that reference your shared history.</li>



<li>Share conference insights relevant to your reconnected contacts&#8217; current roles.</li>



<li>Schedule virtual coffee chats to continue conversations started at the event.</li>
</ul>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Set up your professional digital hub in five minutes</strong></h2>



<p>With Gravatar, setting up a professional digital hub is quick and simple. Here’s how to get started:</p>



<ol class="wp-block-list">
<li><a href="http://gravatar.com">Register on Gravatar.com</a> and upload a professional photo to ensure a consistent, recognizable online presence.</li>



<li>Include LinkedIn, GitHub, or other platforms where your professional work is showcased.</li>



<li>Highlight your expertise and current role to make a great first impression.</li>



<li>Use Gravatar’s QR code feature to share your profile at conferences or in follow-up emails​.</li>
</ol>



<p>In minutes, you’ll have a centralized, dynamic digital business card that keeps your contact details and portfolio accessible across platforms. Whether you’re connecting online or in person, Gravatar ensures you stay memorable and organized with minimal effort.</p>



<a href="https://gravatar.com/connect/?gravatar_from=blog"><img width="3243" height="729" src="https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/free_profile_cta.png" alt="" class="wp-image-2616" /></a>";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Mon, 17 Feb 2025 16:23:15 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:11:"Ronnie Burt";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:28;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:13:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:47:"Do The Woo Community: Do the Woo v4.2 Changelog";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:43:"https://dothewoo.io/?post_type=blog&p=89017";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:51:"https://dothewoo.io/blog/do-the-woo-v4-2-changelog/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:212:"Version 4.2 introduces new shows including WooCommerce Accessibility Insights and WP Agency Tracks, hosts Marcus Burnette, Mark Westguard, and Matthias Pfefferle, while deleting All Things WordPress and Woo Show.";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Sat, 15 Feb 2025 09:30:30 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:5:"BobWP";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:29;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:13:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:45:"WordPress.org blog: Report: WordPress in 2025";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:35:"https://wordpress.org/news/?p=18475";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:60:"https://wordpress.org/news/2025/02/wordpress-in-2025-report/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:2965:"<p>This year is set to be transformative for WordPress, yet many decision-makers risk overlooking the immense opportunities ahead. Our new <strong>“WordPress in 2025”</strong> report highlights why WordPress should be a cornerstone of your long-term strategy. Stay ahead of the curve—read the report now to see how WordPress can drive growth and innovation for your business in the years to come.</p>



<img width="1024" height="647" src="https://i0.wp.com/wordpress.org/news/files/2025/02/WordPress-in-2025-WPORG-2.jpg?resize=1024%2C647&ssl=1" alt="" class="wp-image-18476" />



<p>Some of the key points we explore:&nbsp;</p>



<ul class="wp-block-list">
<li>As proprietary &#8220;next-gen&#8221; CMS hype fizzles out and enterprise budgets shift priorities, open-source CMSs like WordPress are primed to gain ground in the commoditized CMS space. WordPress&#8217; maturity and extensibility provide a high starting point for innovation.</li>



<li>WordPress&#8217; Block Editor has seen tremendous investment, amassing over 34,000 commits &#8211; more than entire competing CMS projects. New capabilities like Full Site Editing (FSE) give enterprises unprecedented ability to enable no-code site building.</li>



<li>Just as being the first user-friendly publishing tool propelled WordPress&#8217; initial growth, AI presents a similar opportunity. WordPress&#8217; contributor community can build not just AI features, but an exciting multi-agent, LLM-agnostic ecosystem representing an intelligent content operating system.</li>



<li>Pure-play headless vendors are working backwards to add no-code editing, while WordPress has long supported robust headless capabilities alongside its mature editor. For complex sites, hybrid architectures leveraging both are the pragmatic path forward.</li>
</ul>



<p><a href="https://wordpress.org/news/files/2025/02/WordPress-in-2025-Report-Noel-Tock.pdf">Download the full WordPress in 2025 (PDF)</a> report directly to learn more.</p>



<h3 class="wp-block-heading">Don’t miss WP:25, the virtual event.</h3>



<p><a href="https://humanmade.com/wordpress-in-2025-event/?utm_campaign=41192678-WordPress%20in%202025&utm_source=event&utm_medium=Noel%20sales%20outreach&utm_content=event%20landing%20page">Save your spot at our free event, WP:25</a>, exploring the future of WordPress and featuring key people working with many of the ideas discussed in the report. </p>



<hr class="wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity" />



<p><strong>About the report&#8217;s author, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/noel_tock/">Noel Tock</a></strong> — Having built his first website back in 1995, Noel has long been watching the evolution of the CMS space. As a co-owner at one of the leading enterprise WordPress agencies, Human Made, his belief in the power of open source is as great as ever. Human Made is a WordPress VIP Gold Partner specializing in DXP, headless, AI and more.</p>



<p></p>";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Sat, 15 Feb 2025 03:19:09 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:9:"Noel Tock";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:30;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:13:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:52:"WordPress.org blog: WordCamp Asia 2025: Manila Magic";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:35:"https://wordpress.org/news/?p=18482";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:67:"https://wordpress.org/news/2025/02/wordcamp-asia-2025-manila-magic/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:4133:"<img width="1024" height="536" src="https://i0.wp.com/wordpress.org/news/files/2025/02/444990627_474578655140578_2659126618470753960_n.jpg?resize=1024%2C536&ssl=1" alt="WordCamp Asia 2025" class="wp-image-18491" />



<p>The first major WordCamp of the year is here! <a href="https://asia.wordcamp.org/2025/">WordCamp Asia 2025</a> lands in Manila, Philippines, from February 20-22, bringing together open source enthusiasts, developers, and WordPress professionals from across the region—and the world.</p>



<p>With three packed days of learning, networking, and collaboration, this year’s event promises fresh insights, dynamic discussions, and plenty of opportunities to connect.</p>



<h3 class="wp-block-heading">Solutions spotlight</h3>



<p>Throughout the conference days, multiple presentations will focus on the solutions provided by our amazing sponsors. This is a great opportunity to learn more about their initiatives and solutions.</p>



<div class="wp-block-buttons is-content-justification-center is-layout-flex wp-container-core-buttons-is-layout-1 wp-block-buttons-is-layout-flex">
<div class="wp-block-button"><a class="wp-block-button__link wp-element-button" href="https://asia.wordcamp.org/2025/solutions-spotlight/">Explore the solutions spotlight</a></div>
</div>



<h3 class="wp-block-heading">Keynotes, panels, and deep dives</h3>



<p>The main conference, which will be held on February 21-22, will feature <a href="https://asia.wordcamp.org/2025/schedule/#day-2">a lineup of notable keynote speakers</a>, including digital innovation leaders and open-source advocates. Attendees can expect diverse sessions on business strategy, development of best practices, and technical advancements.</p>



<p>For those looking to sharpen their skills, presentations will dive deep into topics like SEO for WordPress, performance optimization, and AI-powered content creation. Plus, don’t miss the electrifying WordPress Speed Build Battle, where developers race to create stunning sites in record time.</p>



<h3 class="wp-block-heading">YouthCamp</h3>



<p>On February 22, WordCamp Asia 2025 will host <a href="https://asia.wordcamp.org/2025/youthcamp/">YouthCamp</a>, a pre-registered event designed to introduce young minds to WordPress and its endless possibilities. This initiative aims to engage the next generation of WordPress users, developers, and contributors through hands-on activities and interactive sessions</p>



<h3 class="wp-block-heading">Closing Q&amp;A with Matt Mullenweg</h3>



<p>WordPress Cofounder Matt Mullenweg will wrap up the event with a live Q&amp;A session on February 22. Whether attending in person or tuning in online, you can catch his insights live on the <a href="https://www.youtube.com/@WordPress">WordPress YouTube channel</a> at 4:00 p.m. Philippine Time (08:00 UTC).</p>



<h3 class="wp-block-heading">After party</h3>



<p>As the sun sets on WordCamp Asia 2025, the excitement continues with the After Party (theme: Island Vibe)! Get ready to experience the vibrant spirit of the Philippines with a lively gathering at <a href="https://www.picc.gov.ph/">The Forum at PICC</a>. Expect a night filled with great conversations, music, and a celebration of the WordPress community.</p>



<h3 class="wp-block-heading">Get WordCamp-ready</h3>



<ul class="wp-block-list">
<li>Secure your <a href="https://asia.wordcamp.org/2025/tickets/">WordCamp Asia 2025 tickets</a> (if you haven’t already!)</li>



<li>Browse the <a href="https://asia.wordcamp.org/2025/schedule/">full schedule of sessions</a> to plan your experience</li>



<li>Follow WordCamp Asia on<strong> </strong><a href="https://x.com/WordCampAsia">X</a>, <a href="https://www.linkedin.com/company/wordcampasia/">LinkedIn</a>, and <a href="https://www.instagram.com/wordcampasia/">Instagram</a> for real-time updates</li>
</ul>



<p>As always, be part of the conversation! Whether you’re attending in Manila or following along online, share your experiences using <strong>#WCAsia</strong> and <strong>#WordPress</strong>.</p>



<p>Manila is calling—see you at WordCamp Asia 2025!</p>";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Fri, 14 Feb 2025 16:04:45 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:13:"Bernard Meyer";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:31;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:13:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:52:"Do The Woo Community: Friday Shares: Back in 2025 v9";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:43:"https://dothewoo.io/?post_type=blog&p=90887";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:55:"https://dothewoo.io/blog/friday-shares-back-in-2025-v9/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:125:"A bit ago I announced the end of Friday Shares but, due to community feedback, will continue them alongside a new newsletter.";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Fri, 14 Feb 2025 11:41:15 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:5:"BobWP";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:32;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:13:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:11:"Matt: Scale";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:23:"https://ma.tt/?p=137506";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:28:"https://ma.tt/2025/02/scale/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:340:"<p>In high school when 5% of your class doesn&#8217;t like you it&#8217;s like 3-5 people. </p>



<p>Running a company of 1,700+ when 5% doesn&#8217;t like you, that&#8217;s 85 people! That fills a room. </p>



<p>150k followers and 5% don&#8217;t like you now you have a small stadium of 7,500 people. </p>



<p>It&#8217;s still 5%.</p>";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Fri, 14 Feb 2025 00:40:05 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:4:"Matt";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:33;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:13:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:75:"Do The Woo Community: Woo Marketplace Hits 1000 Extensions—What’s Next?";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:28:"https://dothewoo.io/?p=90625";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:68:"https://dothewoo.io/woo-marketplace-hits-1000-extensions-whats-next/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:263:"BobWP announces the WooCommerce Marketplace hitting 1,000 extensions and shares updates on streamlined workflows and quicker approvals within 1-4 days. WooCommerce is accepting both free and freemium products, encouraging builders to submit their extensions here.";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Thu, 13 Feb 2025 12:26:00 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:5:"BobWP";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:34;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:13:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:74:"Do The Woo Community: Building WordPress Agency Habits with Cami MacNamara";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:28:"https://dothewoo.io/?p=90590";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:53:"https://dothewoo.io/building-wordpress-agency-habits/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:232:"In this first episode of WP Agency Tracks, hosts Marcus Burnette and Cami McNamara discuss effective habits for agency owners, focusing on time management, mental health, and community engagement to enhance productivity and success.";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Thu, 13 Feb 2025 09:45:00 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:5:"BobWP";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:35;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:13:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:84:"WordCamp Central: WordCamp Mukono 2025: A Celebration of WordPress and Women in Tech";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:39:"https://central.wordcamp.org/?p=9547410";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:108:"https://central.wordcamp.org/news/2025/02/wordcamp-mukono-2025-a-celebration-of-wordpress-and-women-in-tech/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:11035:"<h2 class="wp-block-heading has-text-align-center">Welcome to the Pearl of Africa’s first WordCamp 2025!</h2>



<img src="https://mukono.wordcamp.org/2025/files/2025/02/Home-scaled.jpg" alt="" />



<p>Uganda, known as the Pearl of Africa, is a land of breathtaking landscapes, diverse cultures, and warm hospitality. Within this vibrant country lies <strong>Mukono</strong>, a fast-growing town known for its dynamic community, top-tier educational institutions, and entrepreneurial spirit. Mukono is not just a town—it is a hub of ideas, innovation, and collaboration.</p>



<p>This Year, Mukono will host one of the most anticipated WordPress events in East Africa: <a href="https://mukono.wordcamp.org/2025/">WordCamp Mukono 2025</a>. This gathering of WordPress enthusiasts, developers, designers, marketers, and content creators will take place on <strong>March 8, 2025</strong>, at the <a href="https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=mukono+synod+hall&sei=nfuqZ53JM4ewhbIP6MmCqQc">Synod Hall Mukono</a>, near <a href="https://www.bishopss.com/">Bishop’s Senior School</a>.<br /><br />The Venue has been specifically selected to accommodate everyone. This is the easiest venue to get to Ever.  It is in the CBD and in a serene and quiet environment. You will not be suffering from Noise Pollution. Whether you&#8217;re a seasoned WordPress professional, an aspiring entrepreneur, a curious beginner, or someone passionate about technology and community building, this event is designed for you.</p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading has-text-align-center has-medium-font-size">A Theme That Matters: WP HERoes – Women Powering the WordPress Universe</h2>



<p>For WordCamp Mukono 2025, we are embracing a powerful and transformative theme: “<strong>WP HERoes: Women Powering the WordPress Universe</strong>”. This year’s event is dedicated to celebrating, empowering, and amplifying the voices of women in the WordPress community. Women have played a pivotal role in shaping WordPress, from coding and design to content creation and community leadership. However, their contributions often go unnoticed.</p>



<p>At WordCamp Mukono 2025, we will shine a spotlight on these incredible women—the <strong>HER</strong>oes—who are making WordPress a more inclusive, innovative, and vibrant ecosystem. Just as Mukono is a center for education and opportunity, this event aims to foster growth, learning, and collaboration among WordPress users of all backgrounds. We believe that when diverse voices are heard and empowered, the entire community thrives.</p>



<h3 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Why Attend WordCamp Mukono 2025?</strong></h3>



<p>This is more than just another tech conference. <a href="https://mukono.wordcamp.org/2025/">WordCamp Mukono 2025</a> is a place where ideas spark, collaborations begin, and knowledge is shared. Here’s what you can expect:</p>



<h3 class="wp-block-heading has-text-align-center"><strong>World-Class Speakers and Engaging Sessions</strong></h3>



<img src="https://mukono.wordcamp.org/2025/files/2025/02/Speakerlst.jpg" alt="" />



<p><strong>Prepare to be inspired!</strong> We are bringing together an incredible lineup of local and international speakers who will share their expertise on various aspects of WordPress. Whether you&#8217;re new to WordPress or an advanced user, there&#8217;s something for everyone:<br /><br /><strong>Design &amp; User Experience (UX)</strong> – Master the art of crafting visually stunning and user-friendly websites.<br /><strong>Business &amp; Digital Marketing</strong> – Explore strategies for freelancers, bloggers, and entrepreneurs looking to monetize their WordPress skills.<br /><strong>Women in Tech</strong> – Hear firsthand stories of empowerment, success, and resilience from female leaders in the WordPress community.</p>



<h4 class="wp-block-heading">Unmatched Networking Opportunities</h4>



<p>WordCamp Mukono 2025 is not just an event—it’s an experience. It’s a rare opportunity to meet like-minded individuals, expand your professional network, and forge lasting collaborations. Whether you’re looking for a mentor, business partner, or simply want to connect with fellow WordPress enthusiasts, this is the place to be.</p>



<h4 class="wp-block-heading">Hands-On Learning &amp; Workshops</h4>



<p>Our workshops are designed to be interactive and practical, giving you hands-on experience with WordPress tools and technologies. Learn from seasoned experts and walk away with real-world skills you can apply immediately.</p>



<h4 class="wp-block-heading">Showcasing Mukono: A City of Growth and Culture</h4>



<p>Mukono is a blend of urban convenience and natural beauty. From its bustling markets to its serene landscapes, Mukono offers a unique experience for visitors. If you’re traveling from outside the town, you’ll find comfortable accommodations ranging from budget-friendly guesthouses to upscale hotels.<br />We encourage attendees to arrive early and explore Mukono—its culture, food, and hospitality will make your visit even more memorable!</p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading">Event Details: When and Where?</h2>



<p><strong><img src="https://s.w.org/images/core/emoji/15.0.3/72x72/1f4cd.png" alt="📍" class="wp-smiley" /> Location:</strong> <a href="https://maps.app.goo.gl/rir2trT2GUuGb2kK8">Synod Hall Mukono</a>, near Bishop’s Senior School<br /><strong><img src="https://s.w.org/images/core/emoji/15.0.3/72x72/1f4c5.png" alt="📅" class="wp-smiley" /> Date:</strong> March 8, 2025<br /><strong><img src="https://s.w.org/images/core/emoji/15.0.3/72x72/1f465.png" alt="👥" class="wp-smiley" /> Capacity: </strong>Over 400 attendees<br /><strong><img src="https://s.w.org/images/core/emoji/15.0.3/72x72/1f39f.png" alt="🎟" class="wp-smiley" /> Tickets:</strong> <a href="https://mukono.wordcamp.org/2025/tickets/">Buy Tickets Here</a> (Limited slots available—get yours now!)</p>



<p><br /><a href="https://mukono.wordcamp.org/2025/location/">Our venue</a>, Synod Hall Mukono, is a spacious and well-equipped location with excellent lighting, ventilation, and accessibility. Its proximity to Mukono’s central business district makes it the perfect setting for an event of this magnitude.</p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading">Be a Part of Something Bigger: Sponsorship Opportunities</h2>



<img src="https://mukono.wordcamp.org/2025/files/2025/01/Sponsors.jpg" alt="" />



<p>WordCamp Mukono 2025 is made possible through the generosity of <a href="https://mukono.wordcamp.org/2025/sponsors/">sponsors</a> who believe in empowering the WordPress community. If your company or organization wants to gain exposure while supporting a great cause, we invite you to <a href="https://mukono.wordcamp.org/2025/call-for-sponsors/">become a sponsor!</a></p>



<h4 class="wp-block-heading">Sponsorship offers unique benefits, including: </h4>



<p><img src="https://s.w.org/images/core/emoji/15.0.3/72x72/2705.png" alt="✅" class="wp-smiley" /> <strong>Brand Visibility </strong>– Reach a targeted audience of WordPress professionals and enthusiasts. <br /><img src="https://s.w.org/images/core/emoji/15.0.3/72x72/2705.png" alt="✅" class="wp-smiley" /> <strong>Community Engagement</strong> – Connect with potential customers, partners, and talent. <br /><img src="https://s.w.org/images/core/emoji/15.0.3/72x72/2705.png" alt="✅" class="wp-smiley" /> <strong>Networking &amp; Recruitment </strong>– Identify and engage with skilled WordPress developers, designers, and marketers.</p>



<p><strong>Interested in sponsoring? Learn more here: <a href="https://mukono.wordcamp.org/2025/call-for-sponsors/">https://mukono.wordcamp.org/2025/call-for-sponsors/</a></strong></p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading has-text-align-center">Accommodation &amp; Travel Tips</h2>



<img src="https://mukono.wordcamp.org/2025/files/2025/02/Accomodation-2.jpg" alt="" />



<p>Mukono offers a variety of accommodation options, from budget guesthouses to high-end hotels. If you’re traveling from outside Mukono, we recommend booking early to secure the best options near the venue. For more details, visit: <a href="https://mukono.wordcamp.org/2025/accommodation-guide-for-visitors-to-mukono-town/">Location Post</a></p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading">Secure Your Spot – Get Your Ticket Today!</h2>



<img src="https://mukono.wordcamp.org/2025/files/2025/02/Tickets-scaled.jpg" alt="" />



<p><a href="https://mukono.wordcamp.org/2025/tickets-now-available/">Tickets for WordCamp</a> Mukono 2025 are now available! We offer different ticket categories, including:<br /><img src="https://s.w.org/images/core/emoji/15.0.3/72x72/1f39f.png" alt="🎟" class="wp-smiley" /> Regular Ticket – <strong>UGX 15,000. </strong>Each ticket includes access to all sessions, networking opportunities, swag, refreshments, and a truly unforgettable experience!<br /><img src="https://s.w.org/images/core/emoji/15.0.3/72x72/1f39f.png" alt="🎟" class="wp-smiley" /> Actual Cost Ticket – <strong>UGX 100,000. </strong>Each ticket includes access to all sessions, networking opportunities, swag, refreshments, and a truly unforgettable experience! A ticket for people who love and Support wordPress and want to ensure that the Event moves super smoothly.<br /><img src="https://s.w.org/images/core/emoji/15.0.3/72x72/1f449.png" alt="👉" class="wp-smiley" /> Reserve your spot today: <a href="https://mukono.wordcamp.org/2025/tickets/">Click Here</a></p>



<p><strong>Join the WordCamp Mukono 2025 Movement!</strong><br />WordCamp Mukono 2025 is more than just an event—it’s a movement that celebrates WordPress, women in tech, and the power of community. Whether you&#8217;re a beginner, expert, entrepreneur, or enthusiast, there is something for you.</p>



<p><strong><img src="https://s.w.org/images/core/emoji/15.0.3/72x72/1f4ac.png" alt="💬" class="wp-smiley" /> Let’s start the conversation! Use the official hashtags:</strong><br />#WCMukono25 #WordPressMukono #WPHeroes #WomenInWordPress</p>



<p><img src="https://s.w.org/images/core/emoji/15.0.3/72x72/1f4e7.png" alt="📧" class="wp-smiley" /> Contact Us: mukono@wordcamp.org<br /><img src="https://s.w.org/images/core/emoji/15.0.3/72x72/1f310.png" alt="🌐" class="wp-smiley" /> Official Website: <a href="https://mukono.wordcamp.org/2025">https://mukono.wordcamp.org/2025/</a><br /><img src="https://s.w.org/images/core/emoji/15.0.3/72x72/1f39f.png" alt="🎟" class="wp-smiley" /> Tickets Info: <a href="https://mukono.wordcamp.org/2025/tickets/">Buy Tickets Here</a> (Limited slots available—get yours now!)<br /><img src="https://s.w.org/images/core/emoji/15.0.3/72x72/1f91d.png" alt="🤝" class="wp-smiley" /> Sponsorship: <a href="https://mukono.wordcamp.org/2025/call-for-sponsors-wordcamp-mukono/">https://mukono.wordcamp.org/2025/call-for-sponsors-wordcamp-mukono/</a><br /><strong>See you in Mukono for an unforgettable WordPress celebration!</strong></p>



<p></p>";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Thu, 13 Feb 2025 08:53:20 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:21:"Moses Cursor Ssebunya";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:36;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:13:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:17:"Matt: Hash tables";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:23:"https://ma.tt/?p=137372";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:34:"https://ma.tt/2025/02/hash-tables/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:405:"<p>“You didn’t just come up with a cool hash table,” he remembers telling Krapivin. “You’ve actually completely wiped out a 40-year-old conjecture!” <a href="https://www.quantamagazine.org/undergraduate-upends-a-40-year-old-data-science-conjecture-20250210/">There&#8217;s a delightful article on an undergraduate discovering an optimization in a very basic computer science principle</a>.</p>";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Wed, 12 Feb 2025 22:03:25 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:4:"Matt";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:37;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:13:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:52:"Gravatar: Simplify Link Sharing With Smart Redirects";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:32:"http://blog.gravatar.com/?p=2877";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:80:"https://blog.gravatar.com/2025/02/12/simplify-link-sharing-with-smart-redirects/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:4108:"<p>You know what&#8217;s better than easy-to-share links? Easy-to-share links on your own custom domain. </p>



<p>We just rolled out Smart Redirects for all Gravatar custom domains. Zero setup required.</p>



<p><em>And right now, we&#8217;re offering free custom domains for your first year.</em> </p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading">What Are Smart Redirects?</h2>



<p>They&#8217;re simple shortcuts that make sharing your online presence a breeze. Add the name of any of your verified services to the end your domain:</p>



<pre class="wp-block-preformatted"><code>your-name.link/bluesky<br />your-name.link/linkedin<br />your-name.link/calendar</code></pre>



<p>That&#8217;s it. Your domain automatically redirects to your connected accounts. No configuration. No DNS wizardry. Just connect your accounts to Gravatar and the redirects work instantly.</p>



<p>These are perfect for email signatures, business cards, social media profiles, and more.</p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading">Simplified Payments With /pay</h2>



<p>Here&#8217;s something cool: Smart Redirects make sharing payment links much nicer. Instead of dropping a long payment URL in your messages or emails, just use:</p>



<div class="wp-block-columns is-layout-flex wp-container-core-columns-is-layout-1 wp-block-columns-is-layout-flex">
<div class="wp-block-column is-layout-flow wp-block-column-is-layout-flow">
<div class="wp-block-group has-global-padding is-layout-constrained wp-block-group-is-layout-constrained">
<pre class="wp-block-preformatted"><code>your-name.link/pay</code></pre>



<p>This currently works with:</p>



<ul class="wp-block-list">
<li>PayPal</li>



<li>Venmo</li>



<li>Crypto currencies</li>



<li>Custom (any link you want)</li>
</ul>
</div>
</div>



<div class="wp-block-column is-layout-flow wp-block-column-is-layout-flow">
<img width="490" height="374" src="https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/02/cleanshot-2025-02-12-at-12.55.50402x.png" alt="" class="wp-image-2885" />
</div>
</div>



<p>Just add your payment details to your Gravatar profile, and your /pay link automatically directs people to all of your preferred payment methods. Perfect for freelancers, creators, splitting the bill among friends, or anyone who needs to receive payments.</p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading">Free Domain? Tell Me More</h2>



<p>For a limited time, claim your .link, .bio, or .social domain (or choose from other popular TLDs) through Gravatar. Just log in to your dashboard and look for the domain claim option at the top of your profile. Free for the first year. </p>



<p>Once you have your domain, Smart Redirects are automatically enabled. No extra steps needed.</p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading">Available Now</h2>



<p>Smart Redirects work with most major platforms including GitHub, LinkedIn, Bluesky, Mastodon, Tumblr, and many more. We&#8217;ve also added handy shortcuts for your calendar (/calendar), contact (/contact), and payment info (/pay).<br /></p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading">Getting Started</h2>



<ol class="wp-block-list">
<li>Claim your free domain (if you haven&#8217;t already)</li>



<li>Connect your accounts in your Gravatar profile</li>



<li>Start sharing your shorter, sweeter links</li>
</ol>



<p>And fun fact: both <code><em>/twitter</em></code> and <code><em>/x</em></code> work for your X profile. We&#8217;ve got you covered either way.</p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading">Why Your Own Domain Matters</h2>



<p>Your domain is your identity on the open web. It&#8217;s not just for your Gravatar profile – use it everywhere to build your presence and own your digital footprint. And with Smart Redirects, it&#8217;s now even more useful.</p>



<p>Want to see all the available redirects and learn more? Check out our <a href="https://support.gravatar.com/smart-redirects">Smart Redirects guide</a>.</p>



<p>Smart Redirects are live for all <a href="https://gravatar.com/custom-domains">Gravatar custom domains</a>. And remember, domains are free for your first year. Go ahead, claim yours and give Smart Redirects a try!</p>";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Wed, 12 Feb 2025 19:52:10 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:11:"Ronnie Burt";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:38;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:13:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:76:"WPTavern: #156 – Derek Ashauer on Analytics Options and Privacy Challenges";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:48:"https://wptavern.com/?post_type=podcast&p=187359";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:90:"https://wptavern.com/podcast/156-derek-ashauer-on-analytics-options-and-privacy-challenges";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:57075:"Transcript<div>
<p>[00:00:00] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Welcome to the Jukebox Podcast from WP Tavern. My name is Nathan Wrigley.</p>



<p>Jukebox is a podcast which is dedicated to all things WordPress. The people, the events, the plugins, the blocks, the themes, and in this case, analytics options and privacy challenges for WordPress site owners.</p>



<p>If you&#8217;d like to subscribe to the podcast, you can do that by searching for WP Tavern in your podcast, player of choice. Or by going to wptavern.com/feed/podcast, and you can copy that URL into most podcast players.</p>



<p>If you have a topic that you&#8217;d like us to feature on the podcast, I&#8217;m keen to hear from you, and hopefully get you, or your idea, featured on the show. Head to wptavern.com/contact/jukebox and use the form there.</p>



<p>So on the podcast today we have Derek Ashauer.</p>



<p>Having spent over 15 years in the WordPress arena, Derek has transitioned from building client sites to creating specialized WordPress plugins. Today we get to hear about his journey creating Conversion Bridge, a tools specifically designed to streamline the process of implementing analytics platforms and conversion tracking on WordPress websites.</p>



<p>We start with an overview of analytics, tracing its evolution from the simple server logs of the early internet days, to the sophisticated data gathering mechanisms provided by Google Analytics and others.</p>



<p>We explore how the introduction of European privacy laws has significantly impacted the data landscape, challenging marketers and businesses to adapt to a new era where data privacy is regarded differently in different locales.</p>



<p>Derek offers his perspectives on this rapidly changing field, discussing the rise of modern privacy focused analytics platforms like Fathom, Plausible and others. He explains how these technologies employ cookieless tracking techniques to respect user privacy, while still providing valuable insights for website owners.</p>



<p>We also address the problem of data accessibility and user privacy. Derek, sharing his personal views as a marketer, acknowledges the complexity of balancing effective marketing strategies with ethical data use. He explains his thoughts on why modern solutions might strike a better balance, ensuring that user data remains private, while allowing businesses to glean just the insights they need.</p>



<p>Whether you are managing a WooCommerce store, or building sites for clients, Derek&#8217;s insights into conversion tracking will be of interest. He talks about some of the hurdles site builders face with traditional systems and how Conversion Bridge simplifies conversion tracking across various platforms and plugins without the need for extensive coding.</p>



<p>If you&#8217;re an agency, developer, or digital marketer, this discussion will help equip you with the knowledge and strategies to navigate the ever evolving landscape of web analytics.</p>



<p>If you&#8217;re interested in finding out more, you can find all of the links in the show notes by heading to wptavern.com/podcast. Where you&#8217;ll find all the other episodes as well.</p>



<p>And so without further delay, I bring you Derek Ashauer.</p>



<p>I am joined on the podcast by Derek Ashauer. How you doing, Derek?</p>



<p>[00:03:40] <strong>Derek Ashauer:</strong> I am doing well, thank you so much.</p>



<p>[00:03:41] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Thank you very much for joining me. We&#8217;ve had various chats over the years, but this is going to be a chat that we&#8217;ve never had before. This is going to be all about analytics.</p>



<p>We&#8217;ll talk about all of the different bits and pieces, perhaps get into the future of analytics, the past of analytics, who knows? But stay with us, dear listener. It&#8217;s going to be a really interesting conversation. I feel like things are at a bit of an inflection point, and people definitely have strong opinions on this, and I think that can often lie on geographical grounds, where you live in the world and things like that.</p>



<p>So before we get into that conversation, Derek, do you just want to give us a little potted bio? Tell us who you are.</p>



<p>[00:04:15] <strong>Derek Ashauer:</strong> Yeah, my name&#8217;s Derek Ashauer, I&#8217;m in Colorado US. I&#8217;ve been in the WordPress community for, well, I guess I&#8217;ve been working with WordPress for about 15 years, I think. Doing client sites and things like that. So I&#8217;ve done the independent freelancer agency, but now I&#8217;ve moved to making WordPress plugins. So I have one for photographers called Sunshine Photo Cart.</p>



<p>But my big one that I&#8217;m working on lately is called Conversion Bridge, which really makes it easy to add analytics platforms to your WordPress website, and also make it really easy to do conversion tracking, which is something that a lot of agencies and people are building sites for clients just neglect to do. And one reason why is because it&#8217;s kind of a pain in the butt.</p>



<p>So the goal is to make it a lot easier so that I can do it for myself, and my client sites that I&#8217;ve worked on, but also then to make it easier for everyone else. So that&#8217;s how I got the idea for that.</p>



<p>[00:05:02] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Prior to hitting the record button, Derek and I were saying that, you are on a journey with this, you know, you&#8217;re not putting yourself up here as the definitive authority. I think you were basically saying that a little while ago your knowledge was not that deep in this arena and you&#8217;ve really had to educate yourself. And I think it&#8217;s fair to say that you were trying to summarise it as you&#8217;re still learning.</p>



<p>So let&#8217;s have a conversation about this and see where we end up. The thought occurs to me that if we were to go back, oh gosh, I mean the internet, every time I say this sentence the internet does obviously get a little bit older, but let&#8217;s go for 20 years, something like that. I feel that if you went to a website, there wasn&#8217;t even the thought that there was any kind of analytics. Maybe there was some server log somewhere that was recording that, okay, we served up a page, but that was about it.</p>



<p>And then at some point analytics software came along and very quickly started to leverage all of the existing technologies and became really, really sophisticated ever so quickly. You would copy and paste a code, and it was typically Google, I think that dominated the arena right from the outset. They offered a free service, Google Analytics. You could copy and paste one line of code. There was no barrier to entry to that technology. And it would give you all sorts of fascinating information really quickly.</p>



<p>I think everybody was happy with that status quo, but in the more recent past, let&#8217;s say decade or so, but definitely it seems to be ramping up at the moment. There seems to be concerns about who gets the data, why is this data necessary? Is this data consumable by, I don&#8217;t know, an American company looking at a European who&#8217;s browsing on a particular website and things like that?</p>



<p>With all of this, just give us your overarching opinion on it, and then we can go from there. What&#8217;s the state of play at the moment with analytics? Where are we? The year 2025 at the moment. Do you have any sort of overarching insight into where analytics, in air quotes, is at the moment?</p>



<p>[00:06:55] <strong>Derek Ashauer:</strong> Yeah, it&#8217;s a lot harder because of the European privacy laws for the analytics platforms to get the data that marketers and other people have been used to for a long time. Where people came from, you used to be able to get like exactly what search terms people were looking at and landed on your site and what they did. You know, if someone searched Fort Collins landscaper, local landscape company could see that that&#8217;s exactly what they searched, and then what that user did on their website from that search term. And that&#8217;s just kind of gone. That deep level of data is unfortunately not possible anymore to follow those type of European laws, and privacy restrictions and things like that. So there&#8217;s a lot of people who are struggling to get the data that they were used to. That&#8217;s kind of the short of it, I guess.</p>



<p>[00:07:40] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Do you think that we kind of let the horse escape from the barn a little bit, and we&#8217;re now just trying to get the horse back into the barn and get it under control again? And what I mean by that is, do you think that these technologies, the analytics and what have you, do you think it kind of just crept up upon us? There was this slow but inexorable extension of what analytics software could do. And all the while it felt like completely benign, you know, there&#8217;s no problem with it. How could anybody possibly make use of this in a way which might be harmful or, I don&#8217;t know, intrusive or what have you?</p>



<p>So the software became more and more clever. But then I think people, especially like you said on the European side of things, started to take a look at it and thought, hmm, it&#8217;s interesting, a lot of this data is going to, in many cases, big North American companies. Google, I suppose would be a perfect example, but you&#8217;ve obviously got other things like Facebook and what have you.</p>



<p>Just try to maybe restore something a bit more where the user is in control, as opposed to these giant corporations being in control. So just trying to bring it back to the starting line, if you like, to the moment before the horse got out so that we can reestablish some rules.</p>



<p>So, I don&#8217;t know. It sounds from what you were saying as if you&#8217;re kind of regretful that the analytics solutions can&#8217;t do what they once could. I suppose the European argument would be, well, that&#8217;s because it never really, with hindsight, we should never have let it get that far in the first place. What&#8217;s your thoughts on that?</p>



<p>[00:09:07] <strong>Derek Ashauer:</strong> I mean, I kind of see it. The way I often describe a lot of things is like a pendulum swing. In the beginning it went really far in one direction, we got all kinds of data, and then the laws popped up and now it feels like, we can&#8217;t get nearly enough data for advanced marketing, for large corporations that are really doing massive campaigns.</p>



<p>And then there&#8217;s the alternatives, Fathom, Plausible, Pirsch, you know, lots of great, Usermaven. There&#8217;s a lot of new alternative analytics platforms now that are out there, and now finding clever ways to claw back some of that.</p>



<p>It&#8217;s never going to be nearly as detailed as it was a decade ago, that was kind of like the heyday of marketing where you could get so much great data on stuff. But you know, so we had too much maybe in some people&#8217;s opinions, and then maybe there&#8217;s a bit of not enough, and now those companies are finding some ways to move maybe towards a middle ground of what works for everyone.</p>



<p>And as an American, I&#8217;m like, yeah, whatever. You saw that I visited these several websites in a row, I really don&#8217;t care. That never really bothered me, I haven&#8217;t understood the massive problem with it.</p>



<p>Going through all this, I have learned, you know, maybe there&#8217;s a few spots where it would be good to protect that and maybe they don&#8217;t know that but, yeah, I&#8217;m the person that does accept all on every single website that I got to as a marketer, because I&#8217;m just like, yeah, great, I&#8217;ll give this website some data on me, I don&#8217;t mind.</p>



<p>[00:10:20] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, you&#8217;ve got a very open mind to all of that, haven&#8217;t you? And obviously, you are digging into this and your business is kind of largely tied up to that, so very understandable position to have.</p>



<p>You mentioned there several platforms, and you rattled them off one after another, Fathom and others. So a lot of these will be unfamiliar, I think, to this audience. What is the proposition?</p>



<p>So it sounds like many of them are quite new. What is it that they bring to the table, and are these SaaS based products, or are in some cases a WordPress plugin? Or something that can install on your own hardware? What&#8217;s going on there? Just rattle off those names again and maybe just give us the low down on what they do, and how they&#8217;re getting into the market, and competing against giants like Google.</p>



<p>[00:11:01] <strong>Derek Ashauer:</strong> Yeah, so there&#8217;s definitely some great new options and a lot of the initial ones were SaaS based. So there&#8217;s ones, like I said, Plausible, Fathom, Usermaven, Pirsch is another great one that I really enjoy. My plugin Conversion Bridging integrates with like 12 different analytics platforms, so there&#8217;s tons of them, and there&#8217;s still many more that I have on my list to do. So there&#8217;s lots of alternatives, which there weren&#8217;t any before, until Google Analytics 4 kind of came out and people were like, we don&#8217;t like GA4, and that opened the door for a lot of platforms.</p>



<p>But to get back to your question, yeah, one of the differences that they offer is they do what&#8217;s called cookieless tracking. So that&#8217;s one of the big things that the privacy laws in Europe were like, it was around cookies and tracking the cross websites. So that the user, they go to landscaper website, then they go, no, I&#8217;m going to go to Home Depot and I&#8217;m going to look for my own lawnmower, and now I&#8217;m going to price check against Lowe&#8217;s and all these different things. And Google Analytics could see where they were going, and all these different places. Or Facebook ads could track all these different websites that they went to and gauge this type of person and who they are and what they&#8217;re shopping for and things like that. So trying to crack down on that.</p>



<p>Well, these alternative platforms do it without cookies. They have a way, a method, without getting too technical of just basically fingerprinting the user, and know for that one session when they&#8217;re on your website, what they&#8217;re doing. But then it stops there. It doesn&#8217;t go to all the other websites and give your entire four hours you were online, and all the different websites that you&#8217;re browsing to a company to let them know what you&#8217;re doing everywhere.</p>



<p>So that&#8217;s kind of their main offering. And they are SaaS, you know, they&#8217;re just like Google Analytics, but they do cost. So that&#8217;s, they can be affordable. They&#8217;re anywhere, I think there&#8217;s some that are like $6, $7 a month for what a basic blog would ever need, up to $50 to, or even $100 a month depending on the amount of traffic, which is hard to reconcile for a lot of people who were used to free Google Analytics.</p>



<p>So it&#8217;s hard to make that leap when you&#8217;re going, wait, I could do Google Analytics for free and there&#8217;s some countries, and even like a state or two in the US that have some laws where it&#8217;s like, erm, what&#8217;s the setup involved in that? There might be law violations, simply by using Google Analytics you could be violating some of those things in a couple countries.</p>



<p>But there are some setups you can do to try and make it work with European privacy laws and stuff. Takes some extra work. But it&#8217;s a challenge. Is it worth it? We&#8217;ve been so used to, for 20 years, for having free analytics to then now suddenly switch and pay for analytics can be hard for some site owners.</p>



<p>Or as if you&#8217;re an agency doing that to convince your client&#8217;s like, well, we should actually start paying for this. And because you get 200,000 visits a month, it&#8217;s going to cost you $100 a month. They go, or I could use the free version. Yeah, well, I&#8217;ll just stick to the free version. So it is, it&#8217;s a hard conversation to have. When is it worthwhile? It just really depends on, I mean, you&#8217;ve got to really try it out.</p>



<p>[00:13:44] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> I suppose no matter how wonderful the staff at Google are, they&#8217;re not in the business of losing money. And so I&#8217;m guessing that at some point the pendulum does swing in Google&#8217;s favor. So what might be free at the point of use, so in other words, you download a snippet from Google, and you put it into the back end of your website, or you pay, let&#8217;s say $20 a month, or $50 a month, or whatever. I&#8217;m guessing that Google are doing quite well, let&#8217;s say, in terms of the data that they gather, and the way that they can use that themselves. Or, I don&#8217;t know if they sell that data onto any other brokers or what have you. But presumably there&#8217;s that concern.</p>



<p>Just going back to what you said about these other, and I&#8217;m going to use modern platforms, let&#8217;s go for that, the ones that you mentioned. You said fingerprinting, and I&#8217;ve heard this phrase before, and I have the merest idea of what that means. So Google Analytics traditionally came about with a cookie, and we get what that is. But what are the ways around that, that fingerprinting, well, essentially, what is fingerprinting? What are some examples of how that works?</p>



<p>[00:14:40] <strong>Derek Ashauer:</strong> Yeah, it&#8217;s a term that I just use in this moment. It&#8217;s not necessarily a term that you&#8217;ll see as you go around, it&#8217;s just the word that came out. But it&#8217;s just a way to uniquely identify somebody through various different points. You check these five different things about a person, and because of exactly what they are, those five elements, then we can say, that&#8217;s this person. So that&#8217;s kind of, each platform, I call them alternative platforms, you said modern platforms, they have their slightly different way of doing it, but they have their way of identifying without using cookies.</p>



<p>So the traditional way is like Google Analytics, you set a cookie, random value in the browser, and then every time they go to a new page, you just check for that cookie and that value. That&#8217;s how we know they are, because that&#8217;s how we know who they are. Again, the modern platforms are doing it every time the page loads, it&#8217;s saying, who is this again? Let&#8217;s check these five points. I think sometimes it&#8217;s browser, it&#8217;s various different elements that they&#8217;ll check to then determine who that person is, and then know who you are as you go down the path on the website, but it&#8217;s not setting cookies to do that.</p>



<p>[00:15:38] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> So what kind of information might it be? I mean, I can imagine an obvious one would be things like, okay, what browser are you using, for example? That might be one indicator, and then if you match that with another indicator, and then a third one, and a fourth one, over four or five different indicators, you are going to be, well, what are the chances that that&#8217;s a different person?</p>



<p>[00:15:58] <strong>Derek Ashauer:</strong> General location, stuff like that, yeah. Using this specific browser, this version of their browser. In my stuff, I haven&#8217;t fully identified what those platforms are actually using. I&#8217;ve just kind of, at this point left it. They do cookieless tracking, they have a way of doing it, okay great.</p>



<p>Some are better than others. To be honest, there are, Fathom has improved this. I know it was a struggle when I started Conversion Bridge about a year ago. For example, when someone landed on your page and then they did a conversion, say they fill out a form or made a purchase 10 pages later, those two weren&#8217;t associated with, because it was just one page view at a time, wholly independent things. They couldn&#8217;t tell that you are that person on that page view, and that person on that page view. I actually did this, I think last week just to check in on them, and it actually did finally say, okay, yeah, that was the same person. That came in and did that. So yeah, they&#8217;re finding ways to make it work and better identify those across one website.</p>



<p>[00:16:50] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, is the promise of these platforms though that they are different, or are they trying without cookies to get back to the point where cookies were? In other words, a cookie, until it was cleared out, could literally follow you everywhere. You know, it would know which website you&#8217;d been to, and could last for a long, long time and all of those concerns.</p>



<p>Is the intention of these other analytics platforms to sort of step away from that and say, okay, we&#8217;re going to track you on this one domain. So if you&#8217;ve got example.com as your domain, and it&#8217;s an e-commerce store, whilst you&#8217;re there, our platform will keep an eye on you, and we&#8217;ll learn if you have gone through a bunch of pages, and whether you&#8217;ve converted and bought a thing or not. But once you step away from that domain, that&#8217;s it, we are done with you.</p>



<p>Or do you get the intention that they are somehow just, humans always figure out a way, right? If we give them enough time, they&#8217;ll figure out a way. Is the intention for these other platforms, do you perceive that they would like to get to the point where cookies were?</p>



<p>[00:17:45] <strong>Derek Ashauer:</strong> No. They&#8217;re number one selling point, I think if you went to the homepage of every single one of them is they do privacy first analytics, is like the banner thing. That&#8217;s what they&#8217;re offering. And that&#8217;s why it&#8217;s so much bigger in Europe than it is here in the US and North America and stuff like that.</p>



<p>But, yeah, that&#8217;s their main thing, their privacy focused analytics. Google Analytics alternatives that are privacy focused is their main draw. I think someone reminded me of, Katie Keith from Barn2, she reminded me of the story from Fathom. They specifically sent Google Analytics a cake to thank them for being so bad at what they do that they allowed them to create a whole industry as an alternative to them. Stuff like that. So, I think they&#8217;re trying to do the privacy focused stuff, and then backfill in the features to give people as much data as they possibly can that they were used to in Google Analytics.</p>



<p>[00:18:39] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> You said earlier, and we&#8217;ll just touch on this briefly, you said earlier that, the implication of what you said, and you may not have meant this, but I&#8217;ll say it as if you are saying it, and then you can criticise whatever I say. It sounds like, if you could rewind the clock and get rid of the European legislation and what have you, you would do that, and you&#8217;d be happy with that position. You are okay with being tracked and all bets are off. So firstly, let&#8217;s address that. Would you be okay with all of that?</p>



<p>[00:19:03] <strong>Derek Ashauer:</strong> I think there&#8217;s got to be a balance between the two. I get that there&#8217;s, you know, for me it&#8217;s a thing. I don&#8217;t care if you know all the different things of where I went. You know, you see those futuristic movies where it&#8217;s individualised ads on video screens, and I&#8217;m like, that&#8217;s actually kind of cool. It helps give me gift ideas for my wife, stuff like that, because I&#8217;m a terrible gift giver. So, yeah, recommend me some products. I wouldn&#8217;t have thought to do that. I&#8217;ve bought things off of ads I&#8217;ve seen on Facebook or Twitter, things like that. Because I was like, that was a great gift for my dad. I never would&#8217;ve purposely found that if I hadn&#8217;t been shown that ad because for whatever reason, so I&#8217;m not against that personally.</p>



<p>[00:19:37] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> My guess though is that it&#8217;s not really that that&#8217;s the problem in most people&#8217;s minds. It&#8217;s like, who&#8217;s holding that data, and where does that data get moved to? Just the idea that, as an example, there might be a data broker firm who may purchase that data. And in some cases, let&#8217;s imagine that you ended up on a website which you regret going to. You can read into that, dear listener, whatever you like. But you end up somewhere and all of a sudden connections are made between you as a person. And you can also imagine scenarios in which, I don&#8217;t know, data gets linked from various data brokers and they start to create an impression of who you are.</p>



<p>I can imagine scenarios where that could get out of hand, and potentially come back to bite you as an individual. So I suppose there&#8217;s a little bit of that muddled up in it. It&#8217;s not that the business, the WooCommerce store or whatever, is going to have any nefarious reason to have that data. Or wish to know where you&#8217;ve come from, where you&#8217;re going to, what ad you might have clicked on, what were the previous page that you came from, and so on and so forth.</p>



<p>It&#8217;s more that there just seems to be this fairly bizarre industry of data brokers who managed to get their hands on this data, and at that moment, you don&#8217;t know what&#8217;s going to happen with it. And we&#8217;ve all made mistakes in life, but we can erase them just with the passage of time. But with the advent of the internet, some of those mistakes might stick with us for a long time. Does that make any sense?</p>



<p>[00:21:04] <strong>Derek Ashauer:</strong> No, it makes sense. I mean, I could see how someone would visit, again, visit the landscaper website, and all of a sudden they did not know that the fact that they went to a landscaper website was sent to Meta. They&#8217;re like, well, I didn&#8217;t know that was, I was going to a landscaper website. Why does Meta need to know that I was checking out who was going to cut my grass?</p>



<p>I get that in some regards, that there&#8217;s just not a knowledge of where things are going. I think it&#8217;s a pretty safe thing to say that cookie popups, that was just not the right way to go about it. That&#8217;s just made things, made the internet significantly worse. What are the solutions to give website owners the data they need to make good marketing decisions?</p>



<p>Because otherwise, I mean, I think of it even on a bigger macro level that that landscaper, if they don&#8217;t know any of the ads are working or what&#8217;s going on or what people are doing, then they don&#8217;t know what ads, where to spend their money that works best. Now they have to increase their costs to cover the blanket marketing that they have to do because they don&#8217;t know exactly what attribution, what marketing channel is actually working for them. So to pay for the 50 different marketing channels they have to do, they have to increase the cost for everybody.</p>



<p>So if they were able to narrow it down and say, well, we know that mailers and these Google ads are actually our best ways to make money, we don&#8217;t need to spend on email newsletter, or all these different things, our marketing spends only 5% of what it would be otherwise, that means we don&#8217;t have to charge as much.</p>



<p>So it goes to bigger macro level discussions of economics of, in some ways for the consumer, it could be better for these companies to have some data about you.</p>



<p>But I understand what you&#8217;re saying though. It is like, again, I don&#8217;t want Meta to have it, I want the landscaper company to have it. That&#8217;s okay. And that&#8217;s the line that I think a lot of people, I think would agree that, yeah, I don&#8217;t want Meta to have that data but, yeah, I&#8217;m okay with my local landscaper having the data so they knew what ads worked and things like that.</p>



<p>And those privacy or the modern analytics platforms do at least get you a good amount of that data. So they are some good alternatives to that. But it&#8217;s not going to get you, those mega corporations are not going to get the, okay, well they clicked on our ad, they went to these other places, then came back to our site, and then did this and they came back to site, and then did this and came back to our site. And to get those really deep analytics. They&#8217;re not going to and that&#8217;s the challenge. But I would say, the WordPress space, that&#8217;s 90% of people are going to do fantastic with modern analytics platforms and get the data that they need.</p>



<p>[00:23:29] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, that&#8217;s really interesting because you are owning the domain, you&#8217;re running the domain, you probably don&#8217;t have any interest in brokering the data out to Facebook anyway. So what you can get out of that is probably useful. We&#8217;ll dig into that in a moment.</p>



<p>I&#8217;m just curious, being a resident in the USA, and I&#8217;m obviously, you can tell by my accent, I&#8217;m based in the UK, we may have, and I don&#8217;t know if we do, we may have a very different experience of browsing the internet.</p>



<p>I, for my part, if I was to open up a brand new browser, clean out everything that&#8217;s ever happened in that browser and start again, and browse around a whole variety of websites, I am inundated with cookie banners. Go to any large property, I am going to see cookie banners a lot, a very significant amount of the time because that&#8217;s how it goes over here.</p>



<p>They can be confusing. They can be deliberately confusing. And in some cases they can be eye wateringly difficult to understand. The language is inverted so that you are kind of clicking on something you didn&#8217;t intend to click on. There can be so many options. I mean, it is really remarkable how many options there can be. You open up this little popup and you scroll, and you scroll, and you scroll, and you scroll, and you could do that whole scroll thing for like a whole minute and you still haven&#8217;t run out of options. And so we are living through this, and I don&#8217;t know if it&#8217;s the same where you are, I don&#8217;t know if you encounter any of this stuff.</p>



<p>[00:24:51] <strong>Derek Ashauer:</strong> I definitely see them, but it&#8217;s not on every single website because those cookie banners can be configured so that they can be region specific. So if someone is located in a space where there are no laws around that, then just don&#8217;t show on the banner. And I happen to be in that one. So there&#8217;s some that aren&#8217;t as complex that have that feature, and so I still will see those. But I mean, yeah, it&#8217;s not every single website. Honestly not sure how many, but I would say maybe 50%.</p>



<p>[00:25:16] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, I mean, if I was going to a website which is just purely, I don&#8217;t know, informational in content, it&#8217;s like a blog basically, then I&#8217;m sure I won&#8217;t see those kind of things because, what possible thing could they be doing? But if it&#8217;s a website where there&#8217;s some sort of login option or an option where they clearly are using analytics and they&#8217;re intending to sell that on, you do get bombarded with, there&#8217;s so many things that you can opt into and opt out of. It&#8217;s bizarre.</p>



<p>[00:25:40] <strong>Derek Ashauer:</strong> Yeah, it&#8217;s a challenge. And it&#8217;s definitely an area that I am working on with my plugin and stuff, and trying to wrap my head around and understand to help guide people on it. But that&#8217;s one great thing about like the modern ones. For example, if you use Plausible, you do not need a cookie banner because of Plausible. You don&#8217;t need one. It doesn&#8217;t set cookies. It doesn&#8217;t use cookies. So just because you have analytics doesn&#8217;t mean you have to have a cookie banner.</p>



<p>And that&#8217;s one thing I think is something that some people may not understand. You may need it for other reasons, depending on what you have going on your site. But there are sites where you just, I think there&#8217;s a lot of sites that have cookie banners that don&#8217;t actually need them because they&#8217;re so terrified of the EU cookie laws or those privacy laws that they&#8217;re like, it&#8217;s better to be safe than sorry. Lets just throw it up there and put it on there, CYA type stuff, cover your ass. Let&#8217;s just put it on there so that we don&#8217;t have to worry about it.</p>



<p>But Google Analytics is a little like, probably should but, you know, if you are using one of those alternatives, that analytics platform, just that itself does not mean you have to have a cookie banner. And so it&#8217;s worth investigating to see if you could switch to alternatives. Some of them have free plans that you could stay within for a website, have your clients set up their own account. And if they have very small usage then use their free plan, and stick under that limit. And then you don&#8217;t even need a cookie banner on their site. And that can help annoy their visitors less. It&#8217;s something definitely worth investigating.</p>



<p>[00:27:04] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> I think what I&#8217;ve noticed is that, and I could be wrong about this, my intuition though, because I see the same UI often. The cookie banner is clearly provided by the same company. Everything is the same apart from the choices that you can make, but obviously at some point they&#8217;ve ticked boxes and what have you. And it does feel a little bit like that. We don&#8217;t have the capacity to figure out what we really need to do, so what we&#8217;ll do is just enable every single option. Here&#8217;s all the choices that we could possibly provide.</p>



<p>And of course that itself, that feels very self-defeating. Looking at it from the end user perspective, no matter what you think about the legislation and the merits of it, the fact that every single one of us is being caught up in this sort of dragnet of clicking away, rejecting cookies and what have you. That does seem like something which is not a good experience. I mean, I don&#8217;t know how many hours humanity wastes every day rejecting cookie banners.</p>



<p>[00:27:57] <strong>Derek Ashauer:</strong> I mean, yeah, the cookie banners is a whole other thing. In my opinion it should be, if you&#8217;re going to do it, it should be in the browser. There should be a setting in the browser and the analytics code snippet that you have obeys the browser setting so that there&#8217;s not, there should be no need for independent, every single website owner to do their own remediation of, you know, through cookie banners of doing all this kind of stuff.</p>



<p>It&#8217;s bonkers to me when every single website, if every single website needs to follow this, then put it at the browser level. You can just configure in your browser, in Chrome, say, I want to accept marketing cookies and I want to not accept these types of cookies or whatever, and then call it done. And every website you go to then just includes Google Analytics, includes whatever thing. It just can look at the browser settings and follow that, and you&#8217;re done. And it saves everyone thousands of dollars, hours of headache and all this kind of stuff, and it is what it is.</p>



<p>[00:28:47] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> It sounds like a very sensible position. I&#8217;m just wondering, is that a clarion call that is in the industries that you are following, the analytics and the marketing side of things, is that something that&#8217;s gaining momentum or no?</p>



<p>[00:28:59] <strong>Derek Ashauer:</strong> I haven&#8217;t heard of any movement to actually make that happen. I don&#8217;t know why I haven&#8217;t looked into it too much, but I haven&#8217;t read in the stuff that I&#8217;ve come across and reading and learning about it on my journey through this and educating myself about it. To me it seems like a pretty simple approach.</p>



<p>[00:29:12] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Let&#8217;s imagine a scenario in which cookies across the board are just outlawed universally for this kind of thing in the future. And obviously that&#8217;s not something that you would desire, but let&#8217;s just imagine a scenario where that was the case.</p>



<p>As you call them, these modern solutions, if we were to bind that, let&#8217;s say into WooCommerce website, and obviously with Conversion Bridge, you&#8217;re all about the conversion. Does somebody arriving at the website end up doing a particular action? Do they purchase something? Do they end up at a landing page after a particular transaction has occurred, or something along those lines?</p>



<p>How credible do those things feel to you now? And it said that a year ago you couldn&#8217;t do it with this particular platform, and now you can. Does it feel like that whole conversion industry, you know, conversion tracking in particular, does it feel like it&#8217;s fighting a losing battle? Or does it feel like with those modern analytics companies that you&#8217;re still in the game. You can still get the data that you probably need all be it, it&#8217;s not going off to some giant third party?</p>



<p>[00:30:11] <strong>Derek Ashauer:</strong> So the first answer that came to mind when you&#8217;re asking that is, for example, in my testing of some of the various modern platforms, even on those, you&#8217;re getting 70% of the conversions actually getting tracked. And that could be for various reasons of JavaScript blockers, ad blockers, or things like that. And that&#8217;s one of the reasons why I&#8217;m really focusing on doing API based tracking, so that it&#8217;s server to server, not aligned to JavaScript. Because server to server, behind like, through PHP and APIs and stuff like that. If you can track what people are doing, then it&#8217;s going to be a lot more accurate actually.</p>



<p>That&#8217;s one thing that I&#8217;m working on for my plugin is so that whatever analytics platform you&#8217;re using, it can be as accurate as possible. But yeah, I think you&#8217;re trying to hint at it, are these other modern platforms going to go the way of Google and try and sell data? Is that kind of what you mean?</p>



<p>[00:30:58] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> No, what I was meaning was, do you feel that they are credible in that, okay, so let&#8217;s imagine that I own a WooCommerce store, I&#8217;ve been using Google forever and it&#8217;s been giving me this incredibly valuable data, and I really don&#8217;t want to let go of that. But I feel, for one reason or another, maybe that&#8217;s legislation, or just a moral compulsion that I feel I have, I want to move over to these platforms. Am I throwing away a ton of useful data that I&#8217;ll never get back? Or are these modern platforms slowly but surely offering a solution, which gives me more or less what I need.</p>



<p>[00:31:31] <strong>Derek Ashauer:</strong> Yeah. From my perspective, what I&#8217;m seeing is when Google Analytics 4 came out, they haven&#8217;t been able to get the same level of data they used to 10 years ago with UA, Universal Analytics. Which was what we were, most of us were used to when we said Google Analytics, that&#8217;s what we had for a very, very long time, and then Google Analytics 4 came out.</p>



<p>I would say the platforms, some are better than others. There&#8217;s definitely some that have a lot more advanced features than others. Fathom, for example, is pretty straightforward. I wouldn&#8217;t say it&#8217;s very well geared towards detailed conversion tracking and getting good, detailed, in-depth insights. It&#8217;s good at getting page views, where they came from, what country they&#8217;re at. Something you would hand to a client so they could look at a nice little dashboard.</p>



<p>And Universal Analytics, it used to be great. I used to say, hey, here&#8217;s Universal Analytics, go check it out. Didn&#8217;t even have to walk them through any of it. They could look at the screen, understand the data, it made sense. Now, Google Analytics 4 is a cluster. It is for professional level marketers, and that is it at this point. You have to really know the software. There&#8217;s week long classes on how to use Google Analytics 4 these days, because it is so overwhelmingly complex. And I think it went almost too far in that regard.</p>



<p>But anyway, I think these modern platforms can get most site owners the data they need to make good decisions about, are my ads working if I&#8217;m doing Facebook ads? Or am I doing Google ads? Are they working for me? You know, if I&#8217;m doing link building from another site and you can tag those same UTM codes, that might be something, if you&#8217;re familiar. There are codes that you can add to the URL, with the little query and the query variables, to kind of identify that this link came from this source.</p>



<p>And then that can track that user throughout the process. You know, the add to cart, checkout and complete the purchase. And then know that that user came from that UTM tracking code from either somewhere on your own website or from an external website. So it can do all those great things.</p>



<p>So for a lot of mom and pop, WooCommerce stores I think can get a lot of great, useful data. It&#8217;s really when you are more an enterprise company, and maybe you&#8217;re doing like a million dollars a week in ad spend, you&#8217;re going to want something that is really, these crazy reports that you can run. And it&#8217;s more about the reporting than anything that you can do in GA 4 that maybe these modern platforms can&#8217;t quite do yet.</p>



<p>And so, like I said, for my clients, any of the clients that I&#8217;ve built sites for over the last 20 years, they don&#8217;t need any of that stuff. They would be very happy with the reports from, say, Plausible. Many of them would be happy with even Fathom, which I said, which isn&#8217;t the most conversion oriented platform. Even they would be great with those ones.</p>



<p>[00:34:14] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> So your plugin, which is called Conversion Bridge, what does it do? It feels from the outside as if it&#8217;s almost like a Zapier for analytics meets website, if you know what I mean. You bind your website to the analytics platform, and then you can give it, I don&#8217;t know, if this, then that kind of functionality to figure out, okay, what are the conversions?</p>



<p>And also it just feels like you are stripping out the technical burden of learning those platforms. Is that basically what it&#8217;s doing or have I missed the target?</p>



<p>[00:34:46] <strong>Derek Ashauer:</strong> That&#8217;s very close. The idea is, when I was building sites for clients, I didn&#8217;t set up any conversion tracking for a lot of them. One, because it&#8217;s just the cost, because you go buy Gravity Forms well, this site we&#8217;re going to use WS Form. Well, this site we&#8217;re going to use Ninja Forms, or this site we&#8217;re using WooCommerce, this other one we&#8217;re going to use this other, you know.</p>



<p>There&#8217;s so many different ways that you could do a form, do a purchase. Page builders, what button? How do I add a click tracking? Like, every time someone clicks on the buy now button on my homepage and goes to that. So we want to really track all this kind of stuff. It was a challenge of, how did you add that to your WordPress site? And so oftentimes it just didn&#8217;t happen because it was such a pain in the butt to do it.</p>



<p>So what Conversion Bridge tries to do is makes it easy to add the analytics tracking codes. A lot of people just cut and paste it into the header, footer, code snippets, type plugins and all this kind of stuff. That is a way to do it. It&#8217;s not really the ideal way. But it does allow you to quickly and easily add one of, I think I have 12 different analytics platforms, whether it&#8217;s Google Analytics, Fathom, all that kind of stuff. Toggle, copy and paste your just like little ID number. And then the analytics code has been added to the site where it needs to. Make sure it does it for the right users. Like, I don&#8217;t want to track admin users, let&#8217;s make sure we don&#8217;t track admin users. Stuff like that.</p>



<p>But the real benefit is, is that conversion tracking. So say you have a form that you&#8217;re using, and it&#8217;s just a simple, yes, add conversion tracking, done. That&#8217;s all I had to do. Click a toggle. I didn&#8217;t have to think about code snippets. How do I do it? Researching the form plugin, where does it need to get output? When does it need to get output? All this kinda stuff, it just was a pain in the butt.</p>



<p>And then the real benefit for agencies is that, regardless of what site they&#8217;re doing, whether they&#8217;re using Bricks Builder or Beaver Builder, using WS Form, Gravity Forms, it&#8217;s all one plugin that works for any site that you would need, because it integrates with 50 plus different WordPress plugins to just have one click toggle conversion tracking.</p>



<p>And websites really need conversion tracking. They need to know what users are doing on their site. And I think it&#8217;s a huge value that especially professional site builders could add to their plugin stack that they put on every client site to just, oh, all I have to do is copy, paste the little ID number from Fathom, and then I just need to check one little box in WS Form, and suddenly I have, not only analytics on the site, but I&#8217;m also tracking every single form submission.</p>



<p>And we can see where they&#8217;re coming from and which ones generate the most contact form leads on this website that is for a landscaper to fill out forms and get lead quotes. And now I can tell my client, these resources, whether it&#8217;s this external blog that linked to us, oh my God, we got mentioned in this blog, and all of a sudden they&#8217;re generating 50 leads a month from us. We need to do more outreach to all these blogs. And to really understand where your leads are coming from. It&#8217;s a huge value to add to client sites.</p>



<p>[00:37:28] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> I have a couple of questions following on from that. The first one is, have you got any examples, like curious examples, maybe unexpected examples? Because everybody gets the, okay, I want to convert, I want to track that a person arrived at the website, looked at this product and then ended up buying it, you know? Brilliant.</p>



<p>But are there any quirky ones that people have reached out to you that they&#8217;ve used and you thought, oh gosh, I never imagined people would want to track that conversion?</p>



<p>[00:37:52] <strong>Derek Ashauer:</strong> Not yet. It is pretty straightforward, you know, the things that you need to track. Form submissions, email newsletter signups are a good one. I mean purchases, stuff like that. What buttons on your page? You know, maybe you have a homepage and you want to know which button on that page actually got them to go to the buy now?</p>



<p>So maybe you have one in the main banner. Maybe you have one near the FAQ section. Maybe you have one near the testimonials. Which one actually got people to actually go to that page. So button tracking, link tracking is good ones. Yeah, there&#8217;s not too many surprises on that regard.</p>



<p>[00:38:23] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> And then the other one is about the plugins that you work with. So, and again, it sounds like your UVP really is that, look, we&#8217;ve looked at how their plugin works, how the code works, and you just tick the button. You say, I&#8217;ve got WS Form, I&#8217;ve got Gravity Forms, or whatever it may be, and now it&#8217;s just done. That&#8217;s part of the deal. You&#8217;re buying it so that you don&#8217;t have to do any coding.</p>



<p>[00:38:45] <strong>Derek Ashauer:</strong> Yeah, because that&#8217;s, you know, what everyone wants these days. There&#8217;s no code. And they don&#8217;t even want to, even cutting and pasting code snippets. Before it was, a lot of plugins were like, add this, you had to use this hook, and then add this code. I mean, they provided this snippet, and then you had to kind of customise it and all this kinda stuff. It&#8217;s no. Just toggle and it&#8217;s done.</p>



<p>You know, like for WooCommerce, it&#8217;ll send all the detailed data about the purchase. What product they purchased. How much it cost. What the order total was. So you can get all that good data in there so you can do some advanced reporting in Google Analytics or even Plausible and some other, Pirsch, and stuff like that. So these alternatives you can do as well.</p>



<p>[00:39:18] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> No code solution. Yeah, that&#8217;s nice. And the other one I suppose would be, where do you feel your audience is? Is it kind of agencies, or do you have customers who are, I don&#8217;t know, just building their own website and really don&#8217;t have any technical background? Or is it more, like I said, is it more kind of agencies who are deploying this for their clients and they have an understanding of how to set these things up?</p>



<p>[00:39:39] <strong>Derek Ashauer:</strong> You know, I&#8217;m doing my own market research and learning that as a business owner of how to do your, what is ICP? Ideal Customer Profile. And I&#8217;m kind of identifying that it, I think agencies would, so far, I think are the top of the list.</p>



<p>I know there&#8217;s some people that have bought it that are single site owners, but then I&#8217;ve learned, you know, they bought a one site license, but then I learned that they were just trying it on one site to see how it worked.</p>



<p>And they&#8217;re like, okay, yeah, this makes sense, and then they&#8217;re going to upgrade to, you know, a 20 site license because then they&#8217;re like, now I&#8217;m going to use this on all my client sites. This is what I&#8217;ve noticed those one site license purchases have been so far. So yeah, I think agencies do get the best of it.</p>



<p>But it&#8217;s also a great tool to try out because I can actually, and I have it on my development test site, but I can enable 12 different analytics platforms at once. It&#8217;s obviously not something that you would do, but you technically could. And it&#8217;s great because you can actually test different things.</p>



<p>Say, if you&#8217;re using Google Analytics, I want to test out Plausible. Let me try it out. Well, let me just add Google Analytics and Plausible, and everywhere you&#8217;ve checked that box on WS Form to do conversion tracking, it&#8217;ll send it to every single platform for you. You don&#8217;t have to then do a different snippet or code for, okay, now let me cut, do this snippet for WS Form in Plausible. Do this snippet for WooCommerce and Plausible. This snippet for Google Analytics and WooCommerce. It just takes care of all that for you.</p>



<p>So you could try, do the free trial for a week for three or four different analytics platforms. Look at the data. Okay, we ran it for a week, let&#8217;s see which one I actually do like. So it&#8217;s one little side benefit. I allowed multiple analytics platforms to make it easy for me to develop, but then I quickly realised, this is actually an advantage to test out these different platforms and see if I can get good data, and data that is usable without losing Google Analytics data while you keep maintaining that.</p>



<p>[00:41:13] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> It feels like there&#8217;s very few parts of our industry where politics gets in. There&#8217;s just no politics in the kind of things that I deal with. You know, what I mean by that, international politics. Not the kind of politics within the kind of baseball of WordPress, but the international politics.</p>



<p>It feels like this is a bit of a moving target at the moment. And it&#8217;d be curious to see if we were to do this episode again in a year&#8217;s time, whether or not the sand has shifted, and you&#8217;ve had to pivot your product because it&#8217;s moved in one direction or another. Yeah, just absolutely fascinating.</p>



<p>I wish you all the best. Just before we wrap it up, where do people find you? What&#8217;s the URL or the social network or both? Where can we find you? And of course, Conversion Bridge.</p>



<p>[00:41:55] <strong>Derek Ashauer:</strong> Yeah, conversionbridgewp.com is the Conversion Bridge plugin, and then I am pretty active on Twitter. You can find me @derekashauer on Twitter or X, I guess, sorry.</p>



<p>[00:42:05] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah. As is always the case, I will drop all of the links for anything that we discuss today, including the host of analytics platforms and what have you that we mentioned. I&#8217;ll put all of those into the show notes. If you head to wptavern.com, search for the episode with Derek in, all of the links will be right there.</p>



<p>So, Derek, it just remains for me to say thank you very much for chatting to me today. I really appreciate it. It.</p>



<p>[00:42:24] <strong>Derek Ashauer:</strong> It&#8217;s been a pleasure. Thanks for having me on.</p>
</div>



<p>On the podcast today we have <a href="https://x.com/derekashauer">Derek Ashauer</a>.</p>



<p>Having spent over 15 years in the WordPress arena, Derek has transitioned from building client sites to creating specialised WordPress plugins. Today, we get to hear about his journey creating <a href="https://conversionbridgewp.com/">Conversion Bridge</a>, a tool specifically designed to streamline the process of implementing analytics platforms and conversion tracking on WordPress websites.</p>



<p>We start with an overview of analytics, tracing its evolution from the simple server logs of the early internet days, to the sophisticated data gathering mechanisms provided by Google Analytics and others.</p>



<p>We explore how the introduction of European privacy laws has significantly impacted the data landscape, challenging marketers and businesses to adapt to a new era, where data privacy is regarded differently in different locales.</p>



<p>Derek offers his perspectives on this rapidly changing field, discussing the rise of modern, privacy-focused analytics platforms like Fathom, Plausible, and others. He explains how these technologies employ cookieless tracking techniques to respect user privacy, while still providing valuable insights for website owners.</p>



<p>We also address the problem of data accessibility and user privacy. Derek, sharing his personal views as a marketer, acknowledges the complexity of balancing effective marketing strategies with ethical data use. He explains his thoughts on why modern solutions might strike a better balance, ensuring that user data remains private while allowing businesses to glean just the insights they need.</p>



<p>Whether you&#8217;re managing a WooCommerce store or building sites for clients, Derek’s insights into conversion tracking will be of interest. He talks about some of the hurdles site builders face with traditional systems and how Conversion Bridge simplifies conversion tracking across various platforms and plugins without the need for extensive coding.</p>



<p>If you&#8217;re an agency, developer, or digital marketer, this discussion will help equip you with knowledge and strategies to navigate the ever-evolving landscape of web analytics.</p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading">Useful links</h2>



<p><a href="https://x.com/derekashauer">Derek on X</a></p>



<p><a href="https://www.sunshinephotocart.com/"> Sunshine Photo Cart</a></p>



<p><a href="https://conversionbridgewp.com/">Conversion Bridge</a></p>



<p><a href="https://usefathom.com/">Fathom Analytics</a></p>



<p><a href="https://plausible.io/">Plausible Analytics</a></p>



<p><a href="https://pirsch.io/">Pirsch Analytics</a></p>



<p><a href="https://usermaven.com/">Usermaven</a></p>



<p><a href="https://support.google.com/analytics/answer/10089681?hl=en">Introducing the next generation of Analytics, Google Analytics 4</a></p>";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Wed, 12 Feb 2025 15:00:00 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:14:"Nathan Wrigley";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:39;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:13:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:70:"Do The Woo Community: Cami MacNamara Joins the Do the Woo Hosting Team";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:43:"https://dothewoo.io/?post_type=blog&p=90706";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:74:"https://dothewoo.io/blog/cami-macnamara-joins-the-do-the-woo-hosting-team/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:330:"Here at Do the Woo we are thrilled to announce that Cami McNamara is joining WP Agency Tracks as a co-host with Marcus. Cami, a long-time WordPress professional and the founder of WebCami Agency, brings years of experience in running a successful solo agency. As the creator of the Web Designer Habits newsletter and the [&#8230;]";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Wed, 12 Feb 2025 13:24:23 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:5:"BobWP";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:40;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:13:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:55:"WordPress.org blog: WordPress 6.7.2 Maintenance Release";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:35:"https://wordpress.org/news/?p=18445";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:71:"https://wordpress.org/news/2025/02/wordpress-6-7-2-maintenance-release/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:8485:"<h2 class="wp-block-heading">WordPress 6.7.2 is now available!</h2>



<p>This minor release includes <a href="https://make.wordpress.org/core/tag/6-7-2/">35 bug fixes</a>, addressing issues affecting multiple components including the block editor, HTML API, and Customize.</p>



<p>WordPress 6.7.2 is a short-cycle release. The next major release will be <a href="https://make.wordpress.org/core/6-8/">version 6.8</a> planned for April 15, 2025.</p>



<p>If you have sites that support automatic background updates, the update process will begin automatically.</p>



<p>You can <a href="https://wordpress.org/wordpress-6.7.2.zip">download WordPress 6.7.2 from WordPress.org</a>, or visit your WordPress Dashboard, click “Updates”, and then click “Update Now”. For more information on this release, please <a href="https://wordpress.org/support/wordpress-version/version-6-7-2">visit the HelpHub site</a>.</p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading">Thank you to these WordPress contributors</h2>



<p>This release was led by <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/jorbin/">Aaron Jorbin</a>.</p>



<p>WordPress 6.7.2 would not have been possible without the contributions of the following people. Their asynchronous coordination to deliver maintenance fixes into a stable release is a testament to the power and capability of the WordPress community.</p>



<p class="is-style-wporg-props-long"><a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/jorbin">Aaron Jorbin</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/ajlende">Alex Lende</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/alexandrebuffet">Alexandre Buffet</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/bowedk">Andreas Pedersen</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/azaozz">Andrew Ozz</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/ankitkumarshah">Ankit Kumar Shah</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/apermo">apermo</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/benniledl">Benedikt Ledl</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/bernhard-reiter">bernhard-reiter</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/ironprogrammer">Brian Alexander</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/cbravobernal">Carlos Bravo</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/poena">Carolina Nymark</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/coquardcyr">Cyrille</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/danielpost">Daniel Post</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/darerodz">darerodz</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/dpcalhoun">David Calhoun</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/get_dave">David Smith</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/dmsnell">Dennis Snell</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/dhewercorus">dhewercorus</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/dd32">Dion Hulse</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/dougwollison">Doug Wollison</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/ellatrix">Ella</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/im3dabasia1">Eshaan Dabasiya</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/fabiankaegy">Fabian Kägy</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/gaambo">Fabian Todt</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/flixos90">Felix Arntz</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/ffffelix">Felix Renicks</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/franciscabusas22">Francis Cabusas</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/frankbiganski">Frank B.</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/mamaduka">George Mamadashvili</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/ghinamt">ghinamt</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/glynnquelch">Glynn Quelch</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/gziolo">Greg Ziółkowski</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/jameskoster">James Koster</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/jsnajdr">Jarda Snajdr</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/audrasjb">Jb Audras</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/jdnd">jdnd</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/jeryj">jeryj</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/joedolson">Joe Dolson</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/joemcgill">Joe McGill</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/jonsurrell">Jon Surrell</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/desrosj">Jonathan Desrosiers</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/juanwp22">juanwp22</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/jrf">Juliette Reinders Folmer</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/karthickmurugan">Karthick</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/mt8biz">Kazuto Takeshita</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/ryelle">Kelly Choyce-Dwan</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/ketanniruke">Ketan Niruke</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/0mirka00">Lena Morita</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/levskipg">levskipg</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/maciejmackowiak">Maciej Ma?kowiak</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/santosguillamot">Mario Santos</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/mboynes">Matthew Boynes</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/mayanktripathi32">Mayank Tripathi</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/czapla">Michal Czaplinski</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/mcsf">Miguel Fonseca</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/presstoke">Mitchell Austin</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/mreishus">mreishus</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/mukesh27">Mukesh Panchal</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/assassinateur">Nadir Seghir a11n</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/narenin">Narendra Sishodiya</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/nareshbheda">Naresh Bheda</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/neotrope">neotrope</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/ndiego">Nick Diego</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/oglekler">Olga Gleckler</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/parthvataliya">Parth vataliya</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/swissspidy">Pascal Birchler</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/paullb">paullb</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/peterwilsoncc">Peter Wilson</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/pitamdey">Pitam Dey</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/redkite">redkite</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/rishavdutta">Rishav Dutta</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/robertstaddon">robertstaddon</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/rvoigt">rvoigt</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/mi5t4n">Sagar Tamang</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/sainathpoojary">Sainath Poojary</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/seanlanglands">seanlanglands</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/SergeyBiryukov">Sergey Biryukov</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/coffee2code/">Scott Reilly</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/shyamkariya">Shyam Kariya</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/smerriman">smerriman</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/sabernhardt">Stephen Bernhardt</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/sukhendu2002">Sukhendu Sekhar Guria</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/TobiasBg">TobiasBg</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/hellofromTonya">Tonya Mork</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/vishy-moghan">Vishy Moghan</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/westonruter">Weston Ruter</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/wongjn">wongjn</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/yogeshbhutkar">Yogesh Bhutkar</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/zaoyao">zaoyao</a></p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading">How to contribute</h2>



<p>To get involved in WordPress core development, head over to Trac, <a href="https://core.trac.wordpress.org/report/6">pick a ticket</a>, and join the conversation in the <a href="https://wordpress.slack.com/archives/C02RQBWTW">#core</a> and <a href="https://wordpress.slack.com/archives/C080HLPP2Q6">#6-8-release-leads</a> channels. Need help? Check out the <a href="https://make.wordpress.org/core/handbook/">Core Contributor Handbook</a>.</p>



<p class="has-text-align-right"><em>Props to <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/joedolson/">@joedolson</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/joemcgill/">@joemcgill</a> and <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/audrasjb/" class="mention"><span class="mentions-prefix">@</span>audrasjb</a> for proofreading.</em></p>";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Tue, 11 Feb 2025 16:52:23 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:12:"Aaron Jorbin";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:41;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:13:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:79:"Do The Woo Community: Inside the WooCommerce Release Process with Julia Amosova";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:28:"https://dothewoo.io/?p=90545";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:78:"https://dothewoo.io/inside-the-woocommerce-release-process-with-julia-amosova/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:214:"In this episode, James and Julia discuss WooCommerce's enhanced release process, focusing on improved testing, community involvement, and future goals like faster fix releases and compatibility tools for merchants.";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Tue, 11 Feb 2025 10:00:00 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:5:"BobWP";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:42;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:13:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:26:"Matt: Ed Catmull on Change";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:23:"https://ma.tt/?p=137101";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:43:"https://ma.tt/2025/02/ed-catmull-on-change/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:1839:"<p>I&#8217;ve been really enjoying the book <a href="https://www.amazon.com/Creativity-Inc-Overcoming-Unseen-Inspiration/dp/0812993012">Creativity Inc by Ed Catmull of Pixar</a>, it was recommended to me by my colleague <a href="https://davemart.in/">Dave Martin</a> a while back and I finally got around to it. There&#8217;s an interesting story in it where George Lucas had asked him to develop a film editing system that was digital.</p>



<blockquote class="wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow">
<p>While George wanted this new video-editing system in place, the film editors at Lucasfilm did not. They were perfectly happy with the system they had already mastered, which involved actually cutting film into snippets with razor blades and then pasting them back together. They couldn&#8217;t have been less interested in making changes that would slow them down in the short term. They took comfort in their familiar ways, and change meant being uncomfortable. [&#8230;] If left up to the editors, no new tool would ever be designed and no improvements would be possible.</p>
</blockquote>



<p>This made me think a lot about the early days of <a href="https://wordpress.org/gutenberg/">Gutenberg</a> and the huge resistance it had in the community, including causing the fork of ClassicPress. Now that we&#8217;re much further along there&#8217;s a pretty widespread acceptance of Gutenberg, and it&#8217;s responsible for the vast majority of all WP posts and pages made, however if we had taken a vote for whether it should happen or not, it probably wouldn&#8217;t have ever gotten off the ground.</p>



<p>What’s funny is if you go back even further, using a visual WYSIWYG editor in the first place was very controversial, and many people didn’t want the classic editor brought into WordPress.</p>";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Mon, 10 Feb 2025 05:38:10 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:4:"Matt";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:43;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:13:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:110:"Gutenberg Times: WordPress 6.8 Roadmap, Advanced Debugging Course,  Invoker Commands —   Weekend Edition 319";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:35:"https://gutenbergtimes.com/?p=37577";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:112:"https://gutenbergtimes.com/wordpress-6-8-roadmap-advanced-debugging-course-invoker-commands-weekend-edition-319/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:21528:"<p>Hi there, </p>



<p>So I&#8217;ll be off next week to Manila, Philippines. After a 15 hrs flight to a  seven-hour time difference, I need a couple of days to acclimate, and I also want to get some sightseeing in before immersing into WordCamp Asia. The next weekend edition will be published after my return to Munich.</p>



<p>I will be sharing <a href="https://bsky.app/profile/bph.social">photos on Bluesky</a> if you would like to follow along my adventures.  I&#8217;m excited about an infinite  amount of 3D interactions with my fellow WordPressers. Sending virtual hugs to you. 🤗</p>



<p> Have a wonderful weekend, and if you are coming to Manila, too, have a safe journey! </p>



<p>Yours, 💕</p>



<p><em>Birgit</em></p>



<p>PS: <a href="https://gutenbergtimes.com/getting-ready-for-wordcamp-asia-2025-in-manila-philippines/">Getting ready for WordCamp Asia 2025 in Manila, Philippines</a></p>



<hr class="wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide" />



<div class="wp-block-group has-light-background-background-color has-background"><div class="wp-block-group__inner-container is-layout-flow wp-block-group-is-layout-flow">
<p><strong>Table of Contents</strong></p>



<ol><li><a class="wp-block-table-of-contents__entry" href="https://gutenbergtimes.com/wordpress-6-8-roadmap-advanced-debugging-course-invoker-commands-weekend-edition-319/#0-word-press-release-information">Developing Gutenberg and WordPress</a></li><li><a class="wp-block-table-of-contents__entry" href="https://gutenbergtimes.com/wordpress-6-8-roadmap-advanced-debugging-course-invoker-commands-weekend-edition-319/#0-p">Plugins, Themes, and Tools for #nocode site builders and owners</a><ol><li><a class="wp-block-table-of-contents__entry" href="https://gutenbergtimes.com/wordpress-6-8-roadmap-advanced-debugging-course-invoker-commands-weekend-edition-319/#five-newest-block-themes-in-the-wordpress-repository-are">Six newest block themes </a></li></ol></li><li><a class="wp-block-table-of-contents__entry" href="https://gutenbergtimes.com/wordpress-6-8-roadmap-advanced-debugging-course-invoker-commands-weekend-edition-319/#2-word-press-6-0-1-and-6-1-scheduled">Theme Development for Full Site Editing and Blocks</a></li><li><a class="wp-block-table-of-contents__entry" href="https://gutenbergtimes.com/wordpress-6-8-roadmap-advanced-debugging-course-invoker-commands-weekend-edition-319/#3-building-themes-for-fse-and-word-press">Building Blocks and Tools for the Block editor. </a></li></ol>
</div></div>



<p>In the 407th episode of WP Build, titled <a href="https://wpbuilds.com/2025/02/03/407-at-the-core-with-birgit-pauli-haack-and-anne-mccarthy-episode-2/"><strong>“At The Core” with Birgit Pauli-Haack and Anne McCarthy</strong></a>, we had a fun chat with <strong>Nathan Wrigley</strong> about all the cool updates and features from the last three months. We dove into the neat experimental features aimed at making collaborative editing in WordPress a reality, which feels a lot like using Google Docs! Plus, we covered some handy tools and resources spotlighted on the Developer Blog, from nailing light and dark modes in block themes to figuring out data views and form components. And let’s not forget about &#8220;WordPress Playground,&#8221; an awesome tool that lets you whip up a site right in your browser without any hassle!</p>



<a href="https://wpbuilds.com/2025/02/03/407-at-the-core-with-birgit-pauli-haack-and-anne-mccarthy-episode-2/"><img width="652" height="343" src="https://i0.wp.com/gutenbergtimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/02/WP-Builds-Podcast-Episode-407.jpg?resize=652%2C343&ssl=1" alt="" class="wp-image-37668" /></a>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading" id="0-word-press-release-information">Developing Gutenberg and WordPress</h2>



<p><strong>Aaron Jorbin </strong>announced<strong> <a href="https://make.wordpress.org/core/2025/02/04/wordpress-6-7-2-rc1-is-now-available/">WordPress&nbsp;6.7.2&nbsp;RC1 is now available</a></strong>&nbsp;for testing. Final release is expected next week on February 11, 2025. The post has the list of all the bug fixes from trac tickets and GitHub pull requests. With the minor release, we will also see a new version of the default theme, Twenty-Twenty-Five.</p>



<hr class="wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide" />



<p><strong>George Mamadashvili</strong> worked on this week&#8217;s Gutenberg plugin release. Here is the <a href="https://github.com/WordPress/gutenberg/releases/tag/v20.2.0">changelog of Gutenberg 20.2</a>. At first glance, two enhancements stood out for me:</p>



<ul class="wp-block-list">
<li>Details block: Add name attribute for exclusive accordion. (<a href="https://github.com/WordPress/gutenberg/pull/56971">56971</a>)</li>



<li>Post-content block header color support. (<a href="https://github.com/WordPress/gutenberg/pull/67783">67783</a>)</li>
</ul>



<hr class="wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide" />



<p><strong>Krupal Lakhia</strong> published the <a href="https://make.wordpress.org/core/2025/02/06/roadmap-to-6-8/">Roadmap to WordPress 6.8</a>. WordPress 6.8 is dropping on April 15, 2025, and it&#8217;s all about making site building smoother and faster. Expect an improved editing flow with an enhanced “Zoom Out” mode, better style controls, and more typography options. The update also introduces “Write” and “Design” modes, so you can focus on content or layout separately. Under the hood, new tools like Block Hooks and Block Bindings make it easier to customize, while performance boosts—like speculative loading—help sites run faster. Plus, accessibility upgrades and continued PHP 8.x support keep WordPress user-friendly and future-proof. Lakhia goes into much more detail in his post and shares corresponding PRs from the tracking systems.</p>



<a href="https://make.wordpress.org/core/2025/02/06/roadmap-to-6-8/"><img width="652" height="326" src="https://i0.wp.com/gutenbergtimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/02/image-3.png?resize=652%2C326&ssl=1" alt="Change section design from style variations" class="wp-image-37666" /></a>



<p><em>Did you know that you can use Playground to test single Gutenberg PRs? </em></p>



<img width="652" height="124" src="https://i0.wp.com/gutenbergtimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/02/Screenshot-2025-02-07-at-18.50.20.png?resize=652%2C124&ssl=1" alt="" class="wp-image-37682" />



<hr class="wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide" />



<div class="wp-block-group has-light-background-background-color has-background"><div class="wp-block-group__inner-container is-layout-constrained wp-block-group-is-layout-constrained">
<p>🎙️ Latest episode: Jessica Lyschik and I chatted through the latest Gutenberg plugin releases 20.2, 20.3 and 20.4, talked about our WordCamp Asia experience and the upcoming WordPress 6.8 release. Gutenberg Changelog 115 episode will come out over the weekend. </p>



<img width="652" height="186" src="https://i0.wp.com/gutenbergtimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/08/Screenshot-2024-08-31-at-13.08.29.png?resize=652%2C186&ssl=1" alt="" class="wp-image-29869" />
</div></div>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading" id="0-p">Plugins, Themes, and Tools for #nocode site builders and owners</h2>



<p>After building multiple extensions for Gravity Forms, <a href="https://x.com/johnofhousejohn"><strong>Johnathon Williams</strong>,</a> owner of Odd Jar, has released his first plugin for the Block Editor – <a href="https://oddjar.com/wordpress-plugins/quicklink-pro/"><strong>QuickLink Pro</strong></a>, a link management solution designed specifically for the block editor. It adds external links to the standard link dialog in the block editor for easy linking after you manage your link library on a settings page. This is a great tool to manage your affiliate links, subscription links, or documentation pages you keep referencing in your tutorials. It&#8217;s not free, and hopefully, there are a few more features added later this year. Williams also has some <a href="https://oddjar.com/five-tips-for-making-wordpress-plugins-with-ai/">helpful tips on coding with AI</a>. <em>Hat tip to Davinder Singh Kainth from the WP Weekly for finding the plugin.</em></p>



<a href="https://oddjar.com/wordpress-plugins/quicklink-pro/"><img width="652" height="346" src="https://i0.wp.com/gutenbergtimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/02/Screenshot-2025-02-08-at-12.06.01.png?resize=652%2C346&ssl=1" alt="" class="wp-image-37686" /></a>



<hr class="wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide" />



<p><strong>Eric Karkovack</strong>, The WP Minute, dives into <a href="https://thewpminute.com/how-wordpress-block-patterns-improve-your-workflow/"><strong>How WordPress Block Patterns Improve Your Workflow</strong></a>. WordPress block patterns are pre-designed sections that enhance your workflow by offering a quick way to build websites. Karkovack explains the value of patterns because they save time and offer ready-made reusable designs for common content. Multiple patterns can be combined to create landing pages and shorten their production time.</p>



<h3 class="wp-block-heading" id="five-newest-block-themes-in-the-wordpress-repository-are">Six newest block themes </h3>



<p>in the WordPress repository are: </p>



<ul class="wp-block-list">
<li><a href="https://wordpress.org/themes/hr-management/"><strong>HR Management</strong></a> by Peter Williams &#8211; helps you showcase HR services with eleven patterns and five Style variations</li>



<li><a href="https://wordpress.org/themes/gutenify-bold/"><strong>Gutenify Bold</strong></a> by Code Yatri, a child theme of Gutenify Starter, comes with 10 Style variations and 16 patterns.</li>



<li><a href="https://wordpress.org/themes/edugrove/"><strong>EduGrove</strong></a> by Theme Grove &#8211; designed to meet the needs for educational institutions of all kinds. It entails 30 (!) patterns and 7 style variations.</li>



<li><a href="https://wordpress.org/themes/wens-food-palette/"><strong>WENS Food Palette</strong></a> by WEN Solutions, a child theme of WENS Haelo, for food related business with 20 patterns.</li>



<li><a href="https://wordpress.org/themes/healthy-food-blogger/"><strong>Healthy Food Blogger</strong></a> by Creta Themes &#8211; for passionate food bloggers, recipe creators, and culinary enthusiasts, with 10 patterns and a slider.</li>



<li><a href="https://wordpress.org/themes/nas-construction-build/"><strong>NAS Construction Build</strong></a> by Template House a theme for a construction company with 9 style variations and 16 patterns.</li>
</ul>



<p>The total number of Block themes in the repository is <strong>1,130 as of today</strong>.</p>



<img width="652" height="385" src="https://i0.wp.com/gutenbergtimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/02/Screenshot-2025-02-08-at-15.35.55.png?resize=652%2C385&ssl=1" alt=" Six newest block themes" class="wp-image-37691" />



<h2 class="wp-block-heading" id="2-word-press-6-0-1-and-6-1-scheduled">Theme Development for Full Site Editing and Blocks</h2>



<p>In his post <a href="https://haurand.com/circles-wp-developing-a-block-theme/"><strong>Block Theme Circles WP – Developing and Customization</strong></a>, Hans-Gerd Gerhards takes you along his development journey of the block theme <em>Circles WP</em>, which is available in the WordPress repository. Gerhards characterizes his theme as &#8220;lightweight and therefore extremely fast.&#8221; <em>Circles WP</em> is already prepared for an accessibility-ready website. The font used is <a href="https://fonts.google.com/specimen/Lexend">Lexend</a> – an accessible font – as standard. Alternatively, the <a href="https://fonts.google.com/specimen/Atkinson+Hyperlegible">Atkinson Hyperlegible Font</a> – Braille Institute (also accessibility-ready) or “System Font” are available. <em>Circles WP</em> was deliberately developed without any additional CSS, i.e., he only uses the settings of the block editor.</p>



<a href="https://haurand.com/circles-wp-developing-a-block-theme/"><img width="652" height="285" src="https://i0.wp.com/gutenbergtimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/02/circles_height-1024x448-1.jpg?resize=652%2C285&ssl=1" alt="Screenshot CirclesWP in the block editor" class="wp-image-37670" /></a>



<hr class="wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide" />



<p>The co-founder of <em>simplenet</em>, a hosting and web development agency from Romania, <em>Andrei Chira</em>, announced that their first theme, a block theme called <strong><a href="https://wordpress.org/themes/simplenet/">Simplenet</a></strong>, was accepted into the WordPress repository. Chira also shared the genesis of the theme and its features. It&#8217;s meant to be used as a base theme to get started building a website with WordPress. &#8220;The <strong>Simplenet</strong> theme is the result of this learning process. I was inspired by other existing themes and tried to understand how the structure of a block theme works,&#8221; he wrote. The theme is also <a href="https://github.com/andreik6v/simplenet">available on GitHub</a>.</p>



<a href="https://simplenet.io/introducing-simplenet-wordpress-block-theme/"><img width="650" height="427" src="https://i0.wp.com/gutenbergtimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/02/style-variations-simplenet-650x427-1.webp?resize=650%2C427&ssl=1" alt="" class="wp-image-37679" /></a>



<p><strong>&nbsp;<a href="https://make.wordpress.org/core/handbook/references/keeping-up-with-gutenberg-index/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">&#8220;Keeping up with Gutenberg &#8211; Index 2024&#8221;</a>&nbsp;</strong><br />A chronological list of the WordPress Make Blog posts from various teams involved in Gutenberg development: Design, Theme Review Team, Core Editor, Core JS, Core CSS, Test, and Meta team from Jan. 2024 on. Updated by yours truly. The previous years are also available: <strong><strong><a href="https://make.wordpress.org/core/handbook/references/keeping-up-with-gutenberg-index/keeping-up-with-gutenberg-index-2020/">2020</a>&nbsp;|&nbsp;<a href="https://make.wordpress.org/core/handbook/references/keeping-up-with-gutenberg-index/keeping-up-with-gutenberg-index-2021/">2021</a></strong>&nbsp;|&nbsp;<strong><a href="https://make.wordpress.org/core/handbook/references/keeping-up-with-gutenberg-index/keeping-up-with-gutenberg-index-2022/">2022</a></strong></strong>&nbsp;|&nbsp;<strong><a href="https://make.wordpress.org/core/handbook/references/keeping-up-with-gutenberg-index/gutenberg-index-2023">2023</a></strong></p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading" id="3-building-themes-for-fse-and-word-press">Building Blocks and Tools for the Block editor. </h2>



<p><strong>Geoff Graham</strong> created a <a href="https://css-tricks.com/baseline-status-in-a-wordpress-block/"><strong>WordPress block Baseline Status</strong></a> of a web feature base, meaning its browser compatibility. It&#8217;s the baseline status component formatted as a WordPress block. Graham then takes you along the journey of how he built it and what design decisions he made along the way. The <a href="https://wordpress.org/plugins/baseline-status/">plugin is available in the WordPress repository</a></p>



<img width="582" height="150" src="https://i0.wp.com/gutenbergtimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/02/Screenshot-2025-02-08-at-15.14.20.png?resize=582%2C150&ssl=1" alt="Baseline Status block " class="wp-image-37687" />



<hr class="wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide" />



<p>A new course for WordPress developers is now available: <a href="https://learn.wpvip.com/course/advanced-wordpress-debugging/"><strong>Advanced WordPress Debugging Course</strong></a>. Although published by Learn VIP, the learning site of WordPress VIP, the course is open and free to the public. &#8220;Debugging is a critical skill for any software developer. We understand how important it is to quickly find and resolve issues, reducing downtime and ensuring users have a seamless experience on your site. For your organization, this means saving time, avoiding unnecessary costs, and having the flexibility to grow and adapt without worrying about technical hiccups,&#8221; Rick Hurst wrote on <a href="https://lobby.vip.wordpress.com/2025/01/21/new-advanced-wordpress-debugging-course-for-vip-learn/">the announcement post</a>. And the course is a &#8220;comprehensive exploration of advanced WordPress debugging techniques, equipping learners with the skills and tools needed to troubleshoot and resolve complex issues in WordPress applications.&#8221; The estimated course completion time is 5 to 8 hours. Other courses from the same team are:</p>



<ul class="wp-block-list">
<li><a href="https://learn.wpvip.com/course/enterprise-wordpress-security/">Enterprise WordPress Security</a></li>



<li><a href="https://learn.wpvip.com/course/enterprise-performance/">Enterprise WordPress Performance</a></li>



<li><a href="https://learn.wpvip.com/course/wordpress-vip-architecture-and-tooling/">WordPress VIP Architecture and Tooling</a></li>
</ul>



<hr class="wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide" />



<p>In his post, <a href="https://www.briancoords.com/getting-the-block-editor-ready-for-ai/"><strong>Getting the Block Editor Ready for AI</strong></a>, Brian Coords discusses his conversation with Matt Medeiros about the shortcomings of AI and then offers a few strategies on how to help AI become smarter about WordPress.</p>



<hr class="wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide" />



<p>So there is a new thing called <a href="https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Invoker_Commands_API"><em>Invoker Commands API</em></a> coming to browsers. It&#8217;s so new, it&#8217;s only available in pre-release browsers like Chrome Canary, Firefox Nightly, or Safari TP (Technical Preview) behind a feature flag that you need to enable. So if you are not interested in these new experimental browser features, you can skip this paragraph. <strong>Pascal Birchler</strong>, WordPress core committer sponsored by Google, explored what <a href="https://pascalbirchler.com/invoker-commands-api-wordpress/"><strong>Invoker Commands in WordPress</strong></a> would look like. He explains what the Invoker Commands API tries to accomplish and how, and then he switches to what this would mean for Blocks and how it relates to the Interactivity API. Then Birchler introduces the Block Invokers plugin and how you can provide Invoker commands to a custom block in WordPress.</p>



<p><strong><a href="https://gutenbergtimes.com/need-a-zip-from-master/">Need a plugin .zip from Gutenberg&#8217;s master branch?</a></strong><br />Gutenberg Times provides daily build for testing and review. </p>



<p>Now also available via <a href="https://playground.wordpress.net/?blueprint-url=https://gutenbergtimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/playnightly.json">WordPress Playground</a>. There is no need for a test site locally or on a server. Have you been using it? <a href="mailto:pauli@gutenbergtimes.com">Email me </a>with your experience</p>



<p><img alt="GitHub all releases" src="https://img.shields.io/github/downloads/bph/gutenberg/total?style=for-the-badge" /></p>



<p class="has-text-align-center has-small-font-size"><em>Questions? Suggestions? Ideas? </em><br /><em>Don&#8217;t hesitate to send <a href="mailto:pauli@gutenbergtimes.com">them via email</a> or</em><br /><em> send me a message on WordPress Slack or Twitter @bph</em>.</p>



<hr class="wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity" />



<p class="has-text-align-center has-small-font-size">For questions to be answered on the <a href="http://gutenbergtimes.com/podcast">Gutenberg Changelog</a>, <br />send them to <a href="mailto:changelog@gutenbergtimes.com">changelog@gutenbergtimes.com</a></p>



<hr class="wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide" />



<p>Featured Image: Photo by <a href="https://unsplash.com/de/@mbcaptures?utm_content=creditCopyText&utm_medium=referral&utm_source=unsplash">Michael Buillerey</a> on <a href="https://unsplash.com/de/fotos/stadtbildfotografie-von-gebauden-und-booten-KwgEwVEsao8?utm_content=creditCopyText&utm_medium=referral&utm_source=unsplash">Unsplash</a></p>



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<hr class="wp-block-separator has-css-opacity is-style-wide" />";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Fri, 07 Feb 2025 23:42:00 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:18:"Birgit Pauli-Haack";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:44;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:13:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:28:"Matt: On Logan Bartlett Show";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:23:"https://ma.tt/?p=136823";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:37:"https://ma.tt/2025/02/logan-bartlett/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:551:"<p>You may not have heard of <a href="https://x.com/loganbartlett">Logan Bartlett</a>, but he&#8217;s one of the most hilarious people on Twitter and does a really interesting podcast. (<a href="https://pca.st/9p91u5lv">He had a cool episode with Marc Benioff recently</a>.) We sat down for a discussion on managing through crisis, open source and AI, employee liquidity, future of WordPress, and more. You can watch on YouTube below or <a href="https://pca.st/j368ze4b">listen on Pocket Casts</a>.</p>



<div class="wp-block-embed__wrapper">

</div>";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Fri, 07 Feb 2025 20:50:34 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:4:"Matt";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:45;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:13:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:57:"Gravatar: How to Set Up a Custom Domain Handle on Bluesky";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:32:"http://blog.gravatar.com/?p=2814";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:52:"https://blog.gravatar.com/2025/02/06/bluesky-handle/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:13865:"<p>&#8220;<em>Why does everyone on Bluesky have cooler handles than me?</em>&#8220;</p>



<p>If you&#8217;ve joined <a href="https://bsky.app/">Bluesky</a> recently, you might have noticed something different about the usernames. While you&#8217;re stuck with @yourname.bsky.social, others are rocking handles like @sarah.cool or @team.company. These custom domain handles are one of Bluesky&#8217;s standout features – but until recently, getting one meant diving into the complex world of domain registration and DNS configuration.</p>



<p>With <a href="https://edition.cnn.com/2024/11/13/tech/x-musk-bluesky-users-post-election/index.html">Bluesky&#8217;s user base doubling in just 90 days</a>, standing out matters more than ever. But who has time to become a DNS expert just to get a better username?</p>



<p>Here&#8217;s some good news: <a href="https://gravatar.com/">Gravatar</a> now offers free domains that connect directly to Bluesky. No complex setup required. These domains come pre-configured, so you can skip the technical hurdles and start using your custom handle right away.</p>



<p>Let&#8217;s explore how to <a href="https://blog.gravatar.com/2024/06/26/link-your-gravatar-profile-with-a-free-custom-domain/">claim your free domain from Gravatar</a>, connect it to Bluesky, and get a verified custom handle in minutes.</p>



<a href="https://wordpress.org/plugins/gravatar-enhanced/"><img width="3243" height="729" src="https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/gravatar_enhanced_cta.png" alt="" class="wp-image-2634" /></a>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Why custom domain handles make your Bluesky profile stand out</strong></h2>



<p>A custom domain handle on Bluesky (@yourname.cool instead of @yourname.bsky.social) signals that you&#8217;ve taken an extra step to establish your presence on the platform. This verification proves you own the domain – something that adds credibility to your profile, no matter your title or type of profile.</p>



<ul class="wp-block-list">
<li><strong>Creators and professionals: </strong>Writers like @sarah.ink and artists like @studio.art are using custom handles to build recognizable personal brands.</li>



<li><strong>Small businesses:</strong> Local shops are claiming handles like @cafe.place to stand out in their communities.</li>



<li><strong>Teams and organizations:</strong> Companies use handles like @news.company for announcements and @support.company for customer service.</li>



<li><strong>Early adopters: </strong>Tech-savvy users are grabbing memorable handles like @me.cool before they&#8217;re gone.</li>
</ul>



<p>The best part? While others are still struggling with complex DNS setups, you can claim your free domain from Gravatar and have your custom handle running in minutes.</p>



<p>Until now, getting a custom handle meant:</p>



<ul class="wp-block-list">
<li>Finding a domain registrar.</li>



<li>Paying yearly fees (usually $10-30).</li>



<li>Figuring out DNS records.</li>



<li>Adding TXT entries.</li>



<li>Waiting for verification.</li>



<li>Hoping you didn&#8217;t mess anything up.</li>
</ul>



<p>Gravatar&#8217;s solution? Skip all that. Our domains come pre-configured for Bluesky, and your first year is free. Here&#8217;s everything you need to know:</p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>The simplest way to get a custom Bluesky handle: Gravatar domains</strong></h2>



<p>Getting a custom Bluesky handle just got much easier. Gravatar now <a href="https://support.gravatar.com/profiles/custom-domains/">offers free domains</a> that come pre-configured, removing all the technical setup typically needed for custom handles.</p>



<p>These free domains work with Bluesky right out of the box – no DNS configuration required. When you sign up for a Gravatar profile, you can choose from fifteen different domain extensions:</p>



<ul class="wp-block-list">
<li>Classic options like .info, .pro, and .link</li>



<li>Personal branding choices like .guru, .ninja, and .bio</li>



<li>Social media-focused extensions like .social and .cool</li>



<li>Professional options like .contact and .place</li>
</ul>



<p>The best part? <strong>These domains are free for the first year.</strong> After claiming your domain through Gravatar, you&#8217;ll get full details about renewal pricing during checkout. This makes Gravatar&#8217;s solution perfect for anyone who wants a custom Bluesky handle without dealing with domain registrars or DNS configuration.</p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Step-by-step: Connect your free Gravatar domain to Bluesky</strong></h2>



<p>Ready to set up your custom Bluesky handle? Follow these simple steps to claim your free Gravatar domain and connect it to Bluesky in minutes:</p>



<ol class="wp-block-list">
<li>Head to <a href="https://gravatar.com">Gravatar</a> and click the <em>Get Started Now</em> button in the top right corner. Fill in your details and complete your profile setup.</li>
</ol>



<img width="1350" height="998" src="https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/get-started-now-button-gravatar.png" alt="Button to create a new Gravatar profile" class="wp-image-2818" />



<ol start="2" class="wp-block-list">
<li>From your Gravatar dashboard, find the <em>Claim Domain</em> option in the top left menu. If you can’t find it, go to <em>Settings &gt; Profile URL </em>tab.&nbsp;</li>
</ol>



<img width="1351" height="957" src="https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/gravatar-claiming-custom-domain.png" alt="Profile URL settings in Gravatar" class="wp-image-2820" />



<ol start="3" class="wp-block-list">
<li>Choose a domain extension that fits your style from the available options (e.g., .cool, .bio, .social). In this section, you can see how much the renewal would cost for each domain option.&nbsp;</li>
</ol>



<img width="1363" height="1254" src="https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/custom-domain-options.png" alt="Choosing a custom domain through WordPress.com" class="wp-image-2821" />



<ol start="4" class="wp-block-list">
<li>Want a more personalized touch? Click the <em>Change</em> button next to your profile URL to adjust your domain before finalizing.</li>



<li>You’ll be redirected to a <a href="http://wordpress.com">WordPress.com</a> checkout page to register the domain, but don’t worry – your first year is free.&nbsp;</li>
</ol>



<img width="660" height="294" src="https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/domain-purchase-checkout-page.png?w=660" alt="WordPress checkout page for a custom domain" class="wp-image-2822" />



<ol start="6" class="wp-block-list">
<li>Complete the checkout, and you’ll receive an email confirming that your domain is active.</li>
</ol>



<img width="1218" height="925" src="https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/domain-confirmation-email.png" alt="Confirmation email for an activated custom domain by WordPress.com" class="wp-image-2823" />



<ol start="7" class="wp-block-list">
<li>Open the Bluesky app or website, navigate to <em>Settings &gt; Account &gt; Handle</em>, and select <em>Change Handle</em>.&nbsp;</li>
</ol>



<img width="871" height="573" src="https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/settings-handle.png" alt="Handle settings in Bluesky app" class="wp-image-2825" />



<ol start="8" class="wp-block-list">
<li>Click <em>I Have My Own Domain</em>.</li>
</ol>



<img width="660" height="357" src="https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/choosing-personal-domain-for-bluesky.png?w=660" alt="Changing the Bluesky handle with a custom domain" class="wp-image-2826" />



<ol start="9" class="wp-block-list">
<li>Enter your Gravatar domain (make sure it’s activated), and when you get the <em>Domain verified! </em>message, click on <em>Update to [domain name]</em>.&nbsp;</li>
</ol>



<img width="1219" height="729" src="https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/domain-updated-confirmation.png" alt="Confirmation for the changing of the Bluesky domain" class="wp-image-2828" />



<ol start="10" class="wp-block-list">
<li>You’re done! Enjoy your sleek, verified custom handle on Bluesky!</li>
</ol>



<h3 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Common questions on Gravatar’s custom Bluesky handles with Gravatar&nbsp;</strong></h3>



<p><strong>Q: How long does it take to verify my custom domain handle on Bluesky?</strong><strong><br /></strong>A: Verification is quick and usually completes within a few minutes. However, if the system is busy, you might experience a short delay. Don’t worry – your handle will be ready shortly.</p>



<p><strong>Q: Will I lose my original .bsky.social handle?</strong><strong><br /></strong>A: No. As of December 12, 2024, your previous .bsky.social handle is reserved for you. You won’t need to create a new account to keep it, and you can switch back to it anytime if you decide to stop using your custom domain.</p>



<p><strong>Q: What happens to tags and mentions associated with my old handle?</strong><strong><br /></strong>A: All tags and mentions linked to your old .bsky.social handle will automatically point to your new Gravatar-powered handle. There’s no risk of losing connections or conversations.</p>



<p><strong>Q: Is the handle change permanent?</strong><strong><br /></strong>A: Not at all. You can change your handle again or revert to your original .bsky.social handle anytime. Your Gravatar domain will still belong to you, even if you stop using it on Bluesky.</p>



<p><strong>Q: What else can I do with my Gravatar domain?</strong><strong><br /></strong>A: Your Gravatar domain links directly to your Gravatar profile, which acts as a universal online identity. You can use it to <a href="https://blog.gravatar.com/2024/11/11/how-to-list-social-media-handles/">showcase your other social media profiles</a> and build a cohesive online presence.</p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Using your existing domain? Here&#8217;s how to verify it&nbsp;</strong></h2>



<p>If you already own a domain and want to use it as your Bluesky handle, you’ll need to verify it by adding a <strong>DNS TXT record</strong>. Here’s how:</p>



<ol class="wp-block-list">
<li>When you initiate the handle change on Bluesky, the platform will provide the specific TXT record you need. This record includes three key fields: <strong>host</strong>, <strong>type</strong>, and <strong>value</strong>.</li>
</ol>



<img width="1091" height="767" src="https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/dnx-records-for-custom-domain.png" alt="DNS record for changing the Bluesky handle with a custom domain" class="wp-image-2827" />



<ol start="2" class="wp-block-list">
<li>Log in to your domain provider’s DNS management panel (or a third-party service like <a href="https://www.cloudflare.com/">Cloudflare</a>). Locate the section for adding DNS records.</li>



<li>Input the host, type, and value provided by Bluesky into the appropriate fields. Save the changes.</li>



<li>Wait for propagation. While DNS propagation can take up to 24 hours, it usually completes within a few minutes if everything is configured correctly.</li>



<li>Return to Bluesky and click <em>Verify DNS Record</em>. Once verified, your profile will automatically update to use your domain as the handle.</li>
</ol>



<p>This process adds a layer of credibility to your handle and ensures it’s uniquely tied to your domain ownership.</p>



<h3 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Managing multiple handles and subdomains</strong></h3>



<p>Organizations often benefit from managing multiple handles under a single domain. For example, a company could use <em>@news.gravatar.com</em> for announcements and <em>@support.gravatar.com</em> for customer service. This creates a cohesive, professional identity across departments or teams.</p>



<p>To set up multiple handles efficiently, it’s recommended to use HTTP verification instead of DNS TXT records. This involves creating a file in the <code>/.well-known/</code><strong> </strong>directory on your web server, which Bluesky checks to verify ownership of the subdomains.</p>



<p>Bluesky provides a detailed guide on <a href="https://bsky.social/about/blog/4-28-2023-domain-handle-tutorial">verifying multiple handles under a single domain</a>. Since the process requires some technical know-how, it’s best suited for developers or IT teams.&nbsp;</p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Get started with your custom Bluesky handle</strong></h2>



<p>Using a free Gravatar domain for your Bluesky handle offers plenty of advantages:</p>



<ul class="wp-block-list">
<li>Choose from a variety of TLD extensions, like .bio, .social, and .link.</li>



<li>Enjoy your domain free for the first year, with no need for complex DNS configuration.</li>



<li>Manage your online identity from a centralized Gravatar profile, making it easy to stay consistent across platforms.</li>
</ul>



<p>Gravatar domains also help <strong>future-proof your digital identity</strong>. As more platforms adopt domain-based verification, having your own domain now ensures you’re ready for the next phase of social media.</p>



<p>To get started, visit <a href="https://gravatar.com">Gravatar</a> and claim your free domain from the available options. While Gravatar simplifies the setup process, remember to complete Bluesky’s handle change steps to activate your custom domain handle.</p>



<p>With just a few clicks, you’ll have a unique, verified handle on Bluesky – and a free domain for the next year!</p>



<a href="https://gravatar.com/connect/?gravatar_from=blog"><img width="3243" height="729" src="https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/free_profile_cta.png" alt="" class="wp-image-2616" /></a>";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Thu, 06 Feb 2025 20:24:34 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:11:"Ronnie Burt";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:46;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:13:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:81:"Do The Woo Community: Developer Takes, From Code to Connections with Tess Kriesel";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:28:"https://dothewoo.io/?p=90490";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:79:"https://dothewoo.io/developer-takes-from-code-to-connections-with-tess-kriesel/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:222:"In this episode of DevPulse’s "Expanding the Stack," hosts Carl and Zach explore diverse developer backgrounds, emphasize networking and soft skills, and discuss challenges in today's job market with guest Tessa Kriesel.";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Thu, 06 Feb 2025 10:02:24 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:5:"BobWP";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:47;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:13:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:84:"WPTavern: #155 – Anthony Jackson on Trying to Figure Out His Way in the Tech World";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:48:"https://wptavern.com/?post_type=podcast&p=187096";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:98:"https://wptavern.com/podcast/155-anthony-jackson-on-trying-to-figure-out-his-way-in-the-tech-world";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:53794:"Transcript<div>
<p>[00:00:00] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Welcome to the Jukebox Podcast from WP Tavern. My name is Nathan Wrigley.</p>



<p>Jukebox is a podcast which is dedicated to all things WordPress. The people, the events, the plugins, the blocks, the themes, and in this case, trying to figure out a way through the tech world.</p>



<p>If you&#8217;d like to subscribe to the podcast, you can do that by searching for WP Tavern in your podcast player of choice, or by going to wp tavern.com/feed/podcast, and you can copy that URL into most podcast players.</p>



<p>If you have a topic that you&#8217;d like us to feature on the podcast, I&#8217;m keen to hear from you and hopefully get you, or your idea, featured on the show. Head to wptavern.com/contact/jukebox and use the form there.</p>



<p>So on the podcast today we have Anthony Jackson.</p>



<p>Anthony is a true technophile whose journey has been shaped by a constant pursuit of understanding new technologies.</p>



<p>From a young age, Anthony&#8217;s curiosity about technology laid the foundation for a lifetime of exploration. Starting from modest beginnings in computer repair, he steadily transitioned into the world of WordPress, and the complexities of server management.</p>



<p>This episode really is a story, the story of trying new things, being creative, and always following curiosity wherever it may lead.</p>



<p>Anthony talks about his early experiences describing the moment computers first sparked his interest, and the subsequent path he charted in the technology space. Despite hurdles and frustrations, particularly with initial web development and WordPress hosting, his story is a testament to determination and resilience.</p>



<p>As you&#8217;ll hear, Anthony learned the ropes of many technologies from grappling with CSS for website customization, to exploring cloud computing, and the command line in Linux.</p>



<p>His journey took a big turn when he discovered automated Bash scripts that facilitate the deployment of open source applications like WordPress. This is what Anthony is doing right now, but you&#8217;re going to hear many stories of different pathways that led to this situation.</p>



<p>Throughout the episode, Anthony sheds light on his philosophy of embracing technology. He speaks about the numerous technologies he&#8217;s explored, the trials he faced along the way, and the value of cultivating his technical skills. With his Bash scripts ready to streamline server setups and deployments, Anthony envisions a future where technology is not just a tool, but a powerful ally for businesses and personal projects alike.</p>



<p>If you&#8217;re keen to hear some inspirational stories about overcoming tech challenges, resilience and learning, this episode is for you.</p>



<p>If you&#8217;re interested in finding out more, you can find all of the links in the show notes by heading to wp tavern.com/podcast, where you&#8217;ll find all the other episodes as well.</p>



<p>And so without further delay, I bring you Anthony Jackson.</p>



<p>I am joined on the podcast today by Anthony Jackson. Hello.</p>



<p>[00:03:32] <strong>Anthony Jackson:</strong> Hello, Nathan. How are you?</p>



<p>[00:03:33] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, great. I&#8217;m very, very pleased to chat with you today, not only because you&#8217;ve got some really nice audio equipment, which makes you sound amazing, but also it&#8217;s very nice to meet new faces, new people for the first time ever. That&#8217;s what&#8217;s happening here. I&#8217;ve never met Anthony before.</p>



<p>But in order that both you, dear listener and I, the interviewer, get to know a bit about Anthony, would you mind giving us your little potted bio. I guess it would be best to keep that in the sphere of technology, perhaps WordPress. But just tell us a little bit about yourself, but not too many spoilers about the episode to come.</p>



<p>[00:04:03] <strong>Anthony Jackson:</strong> Yeah, so my name is Anthony Jackson. I&#8217;m a technical person by nature. I&#8217;ve always loved technology, always had a thing for it. Went to school for computer technology. I have my own computer repair business. So I do that on the side, part-time, while I work a full-time job, as well as grow the business that you&#8217;re going to learn about here in a little bit.</p>



<p>So I stay pretty busy, obviously. I love technology, I feel that it can help a lot of people. I don&#8217;t think you should ever be afraid of it. I think you should always embrace it. It&#8217;s one of those things, if you don&#8217;t get on the bandwagon now, you kind of get punished for it later.</p>



<p>So I&#8217;m just really excited to share with your audience my journey because it hasn&#8217;t been easy, and I&#8217;m really glad I took the leap of faith because if I didn&#8217;t I certainly wouldn&#8217;t be where I am now. So I&#8217;m just really excited to get started and talk about it and share it with you guys.</p>



<p>[00:04:47] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Okay, that&#8217;s great. Thank you so much. Can I just ask, I don&#8217;t know your age, but when I was at school, so I&#8217;m now in my very, very early fifties, but when I was at school, a child at school, computers were just starting to be something that was in the market, it wasn&#8217;t the domain of universities occupying an entire room. It was something which you could hold in both arms, but they weren&#8217;t ubiquitous.</p>



<p>You know, maybe the school had one. It was very rare for an individual to own a computer. And so it wasn&#8217;t really until I was much older and had left school that computers became a bit of a thing which people could tinker with.</p>



<p>What was the experience for you? Again, I&#8217;m not trying to wrangle your age out of you, but just give us an insight into how much computing had progressed by the time you were sort of at school?</p>



<p>[00:05:28] <strong>Anthony Jackson:</strong> Oh my gosh, Nathan, I&#8217;ll tell you a little backstory. So my mom left me when I was younger. My dad had passed away. It was kind of just me and I lived with my aunt. She had given me a computer to go live with my mom. She had found my mom is what happened.</p>



<p>I turned it on and it was just an old compact, it booted up so slowly. I had no idea what it was, how it worked, what the purpose of it was. All I knew was I wanted to be on the internet. At that time it was AOL, that was the place to be.</p>



<p>I remember turning it on and I pressed the button on the DVD player and the tray opened, and I was like, wait, what is the sorcery? Like, and I&#8217;m like, oh, that&#8217;s cool. Okay, we&#8217;ll go with that. And the neighbor knocked on the door and said, hey, you&#8217;ve got some mail, and she gave me this disk, remember the AOL 3.0 Running Man disk? And I was like, what is this? Like, 30 minutes of the free internet. I&#8217;m like, what is the internet, right?</p>



<p>And I put it in this tray and I ended up setting up my account and the first words I heard were, welcome, you&#8217;ve got mail. And I&#8217;m like, no I don&#8217;t, I just checked it. And I got totally hooked immediately on this whole email thing. And I just, it blossomed, man, and I&#8217;ve been doing computers for, God, 20 years now.</p>



<p>So I love the backstory on it because it really changed my life. Like, I discovered the internet, email. I spent five years homeless without the internet. I never would&#8217;ve known like who to ask for help, how to get help. It truly changed my life, Nathan. It really did.</p>



<p>[00:06:40] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> I think there&#8217;s something quite addictive about it, but also I think, and this is from personal experience, I have no reference to psychology of the human race in general, but it would seem that some people really from a very, very early age are drawn to it on a level which is indescribable. You just have this desire to be in close proximity to a computer that&#8217;s switched on, and to be tinkering with it.</p>



<p>I have that, but I know people who are very dear to me that if you put them near a computer, the first thing they want to do is get out the chair and walk away. You know, there&#8217;s just no interest in it whatsoever. But I think it is something that you can be passionate about in a heartbeat.</p>



<p>So in your case, you know, you press the DVD button, something happened, you did it on a keyboard and something happened elsewhere over there. It&#8217;s like, ooh, these two things are connected. There&#8217;s something clever going on there.</p>



<p>And all of a sudden alarm bells are ringing. Like, wow, I&#8217;ve got to dig deeper into this. I know already though that you are younger than I am because you joined the computer world at a time when the internet existed. When I was playing with the first computers, basically, you switched it on and a cursor blinked, and that was it. That was the fun that you had, you had to type things in.</p>



<p>[00:07:45] <strong>Anthony Jackson:</strong> My first experience was Windows 3.1, back when the briefcase was around.</p>



<p>[00:07:49] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Okay, so as a child leaving school, you&#8217;ve got this interest in computers and what have you. So where did the journey go from there? What were the next steps from Windows 3.1? What are some of the things that began early on? What were the dominoes that fell?</p>



<p>[00:08:00] <strong>Anthony Jackson:</strong> Well, I discovered Windows XP, it was the hottest thing since sliced bread. I loved XP. Vista was a hot mess. Fast forward, seven was good, eight was terrible. And then Windows 10, and now Windows 11. I figured if I learned Windows 3.1, I kind of had to follow the journey. So I started Googling the different features of Windows, realised quickly that an operating system is an operating system, it&#8217;s just where you find stuff, right?</p>



<p>I love the fact that I could see it progress, that I could be a part of that and help people. And that&#8217;s what really turned me onto it. So the technology thing is what really kind of gets me. I love technology. I love the fact that we can use it to have a good time, to leverage it, to grow our businesses, to do a lot of things, like podcasting and other things.</p>



<p>[00:08:40] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Are you the kind of person that upon receiving a computer, desktop computer, do you like to take it apart and see what the bits are inside there, or assemble your own? Or are you purchase it from the store and let the dust gather on the inside and then dispose of it at some point, 5, 10 years later whatever it may be?</p>



<p>[00:08:55] <strong>Anthony Jackson:</strong> The thing that I love the most, Nathan, this is going to sound so crazy, I don&#8217;t enjoy building them. I actually don&#8217;t know how to build them. I tried once and failed miserably. But what I love nothing more in my computer repair business is when somebody comes to me and says, Tony, I need to buy a new one, I don&#8217;t know what to do, where do I start?</p>



<p>I love that conversation because it&#8217;s so overwhelming for a lot of people, and I have a unique way. I took a Tony Robbins class a long time ago for personal development, and they did this whole assessment on me and the results yielded that I had a way of breaking down technical information into a manner that someone can understand.</p>



<p>So when someone comes to me and says, I need a new computer, I&#8217;m like, okay, I got you, it&#8217;s okay. What do you need? What are you looking for? What are your concerns? And I can have a nice conversation and ease them into making a confident purchase instead of buyer&#8217;s remorse. It makes such a difference.</p>



<p>[00:09:43] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> I&#8217;m firmly on the Mac side of things, and when you purchase a Mac, you really only have three or four decisions to make, one of which is color. What color do you want the computer to be? But beyond that, it&#8217;s things like how much memory, how much ram, there&#8217;s very few components that you really get to choose about that.</p>



<p>But on the Windows side of things, for a family member, I have recently built a computer and I was actually fairly alarmed at how many choices there were for every single thing. And it really did make me realise that there&#8217;s a whole career in just being able to understand what range of graphics cards there are, what range of CPUs there are, what kind of panel could you have as a display, what the keyboards are, what the mouse are.</p>



<p>And that was really interesting to me. Is that something that you nerd out on then? Do you know all of the kind of serial numbers of the different graphics cards which are available?</p>



<p>[00:10:32] <strong>Anthony Jackson:</strong> I&#8217;m not that big of a nerd. My nerd comes out when I started Learn WordPress, that&#8217;s when the nerd came out.</p>



<p>[00:10:38] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Okay. Well, we&#8217;ve established your nerd credentials. That&#8217;s lovely. Let&#8217;s move on to WordPress then. When did you, firstly, when was the first time you came across WordPress, and in what context? What did you need it for?</p>



<p>[00:10:48] <strong>Anthony Jackson:</strong> So a long time ago I started my computer repair business, probably about eight or nine years ago. And the first thing that came to mind was a website. I was like, I have to have a website. I have a business, it&#8217;s a known fact you have to have a website, right?</p>



<p>Well, I didn&#8217;t know WordPress had never heard of WordPress, so I went where any other person would go, and that was to the internet to find web hosting, and I found godaddy.com. And I was like, GoDaddy it is.</p>



<p>I had a budget of around $3,000, and what happened was they ended up coding me a really nice HTML, CSS, web development website. But I realised quickly that I&#8217;m a picky person. I wanted things changed. I didn&#8217;t like how things aligned. OCD, like the CSS and stuff wasn&#8217;t aligning. And I wanted more control. I wanted to be able to control that.</p>



<p>And I remember Googling how to control your website and it said WordPress, the number one platform. I&#8217;m like, what the hell is WordPress? Okay. And I clicked, best decision of my life. I ended up going back to GoDaddy to get hosting, WordPress hosting. I didn&#8217;t know what it was, I had to kind of figure it out. And I realised quickly about shared hosting, and what it was, and how it acted, and I didn&#8217;t like the fact that I was being shared with people, it made me very angry.</p>



<p>I went through seven different hosting providers, 15 different WordPress for Dummies books, trying to figure things out. Was very, very hard. One day I ended up going to like, I think it was Namecheap or something, and getting a little bit better WordPress hosting with more resources because I thought that would help. And I was sitting there so frustrated because I saw a template but had no idea what to do.</p>



<p>And all of a sudden after tinkering with WordPress in the back end, I put the word home in what we call the primary menu. And at that point it clicked. I was like, oh my God, I can build a fully fledged website with content that&#8217;s branded to me without having to pay extra to add revisions and stuff like that.</p>



<p>And so for like two weeks straight, I learned how to install WordPress. I learned the art of the primary menu. I had so much fun just adding the same buttons every time, home, about, services, contact. And then I discovered page builders. That&#8217;s when things really turned. Divi was my first love, and always will be.</p>



<p>[00:12:50] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Did you have to really persevere then, because it sounds like you&#8217;ve got all of the equipment in your head for dealing with technical problems. You&#8217;ve got that sort of passion to see it through to the end. I think I get quite frustrated with certain tasks and give up fairly quickly, but it sounds like you&#8217;ve got all of the bits and pieces.</p>



<p>10 years ago when you installed WordPress, I&#8217;m guessing it was a much more difficult enterprise than it is now. You know, you&#8217;ve got these hosting companies that you basically click one button and not only will they set your WordPress website up, they&#8217;ll send you the login links, you can probably just click a button to log in on the backend and what have you. Was it fairly frustrating, and do you think that, if you&#8217;d had a different personality type, you would&#8217;ve just thrown the baby out the bathwater and gone, nope?</p>



<p>[00:13:29] <strong>Anthony Jackson:</strong> A hundred percent. If I did not have my technical background, I would&#8217;ve gave up years ago. I called GoDaddy so many times for support. I can&#8217;t even begin to tell you how many times I called them. And I enjoyed calling them because when I did call them, I got to give them some great feedback because they understood completely what I was trying to do. So it was really cool. I got to see them improve and I got to see myself improve. But it was also nice to be able to call them and get it fixed because I didn&#8217;t have to explain what I was trying to do. I knew what I was trying to do.</p>



<p>And the design element stuff did not come until later. I spent so much time tinkering with WordPress, buying plugins. Nathan, I&#8217;ve got a repository on themeforest.net of plugins and themes that I haven&#8217;t even touched. I bought anything from caching plugins, to improve performance, to membership plugins, not knowing any idea what they&#8217;ve been. I just went on as spending spree and just bought everything. And now I&#8217;m like, what do I do with it all? Like, I don&#8217;t even know what I want to build.</p>



<p>[00:14:27] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> There&#8217;s a definite learning curve there. Just dealing with the nature of the internet. I don&#8217;t know quite how to put this. When I talk to people about how interesting I think the internet is, I can very often sense that people&#8217;s eyes are glazing over. You know, oh Nathan, dear Nathan, what&#8217;s the matter with you?</p>



<p>But I think on a very profound level that it is amazing that we live in a time where you can download free software, and with a few dollars invested in hosting, and it doesn&#8217;t have to be a lot, you can have something that the entire world, well, by that I mean people who have access to the internet, the entire world can see.</p>



<p>And conceptually, I just think that&#8217;s utterly remarkable. And I don&#8217;t know if it ever sort of hits you in the same way that it hits me. But you said, you know, you put the word home on your webpage, or you put something for your home screen and you have that moment of, I can do the internet. I can be on the internet.</p>



<p>I think that is something which gets lost so quick. But occasionally I stare at what I&#8217;m doing and think, I just click publish and there it is, and everybody can see it. And I think that&#8217;s phenomenal.</p>



<p>[00:15:35] <strong>Anthony Jackson:</strong> That hit me when I discovered the actual blog portion of WordPress. When I discovered that my content could go out to anybody and everybody with a click of a button. I was a little blown away. I was a little overwhelmed because I was like, this is really cool. I&#8217;ve created a piece of content for somebody that might need my help. They can just click a button and within a few seconds potentially see it. Like that is, you&#8217;re right, it&#8217;s remarkable. But it&#8217;s also really overwhelming for somebody who&#8217;s never experienced it.</p>



<p>[00:16:00] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, and I guess, you&#8217;ve got to be a little bit careful about what you publish and what have you. But I still think we are in an age where I think it&#8217;s easy to forget how privileged we are that we have access. Well, you and I, for example, we&#8217;ve never met. We&#8217;ve only communicated on the internet via a social network. I messaged to say would anybody enjoy coming on this podcast? You contacted me. Here we are. We&#8217;re using a browser based application to communicate with each other. And this is just totally normal now. And yet my 14-year-old self staring at the computer in the school, what we&#8217;re doing now was the realm of Star Trek.</p>



<p>This was the kind of thing that people in spaceships did, and yet now it&#8217;s totally normal. And sometimes I try to sort of impress upon my children how remarkable it is, but for them it&#8217;s just, no, no, no, this is what all humans have had for all time. And it just gets lost.</p>



<p>[00:16:49] <strong>Anthony Jackson:</strong> It is remarkable.</p>



<p>[00:16:50] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Where from there then? So we&#8217;ve reached the point where you&#8217;ve discovered WordPress. What&#8217;s happened subsequently since then? It sounds like you&#8217;ve got your business all pivoted around WordPress as well. What&#8217;s the next step in the story?</p>



<p>[00:17:01] <strong>Anthony Jackson:</strong> Well, I went through multiple page builders, never really learned another one because I got so comfortable with Divi. I tried Elementor, didn&#8217;t really like it all that much. Tried every block builder. Discovered Gutenberg was the worst thing known to mankind. Tried buying Astra, some other, I forget the other company that has the block builder.</p>



<p>[00:17:20] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Kadence maybe.</p>



<p>[00:17:21] <strong>Anthony Jackson:</strong> Kadence, yes, I tried them. But the thing that I didn&#8217;t like about WordPress, I loved the page builders, they made things easy, but the one thing that I hated the most is I never really had control of where to put stuff. It always was just like, this is your block, this is where it goes. I didn&#8217;t know CSS. I didn&#8217;t know HTML. I did not know how to move things, and I hated that.</p>



<p>Because the whole point of me going to WordPress was to have control. And when I lost control, it turned me off. I was the person who built the entire website and canceled my hosting because I wanted more control. That&#8217;s how I learned. I canceled, and bought, and canceled, and bought and thought it would get better and it didn&#8217;t, and I just pushed, and pushed, and pushed and learned.</p>



<p>So I started to just Google how to move things with CSS. I taught myself the basics of CSS and HTML, and a little bit of JavaScript. Not a lot, just enough to be dangerous. But I wanted control, Nathan. I wanted to be able to do things, and when I discovered that I could do that, that put me in another whole new rabbit hole. Then I discovered plugins that control CSS, selectors and all of that, so it gave me an opportunity.</p>



<p>[00:18:20] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, I always think that WordPress kind of has been pitched at me by other human beings as this kind of catchall, easy to use solution. I think maybe you&#8217;ll get lucky and you&#8217;ll be satisfied in a way that you clearly are not, you know, if you want every pixel to be mapped perfectly from your head onto the screen, that&#8217;s not going to be the case. But maybe for many people it&#8217;s enough.</p>



<p>Okay, I&#8217;ve got this templated layout, it&#8217;s fine, I&#8217;m happy with that. I&#8217;ll click publish and whatever&#8217;s there is fine. But if you do want to move things around, and you do want to have a particular layout, and you want to show only these posts here and these posts here, but you want it to look entirely different from the theme that you&#8217;re using, I think it&#8217;s still very confusing.</p>



<p>And I think the underlying languages of HTML, CSS and JavaScript, which really these days are the underpinnings of certainly the front end of web development, they&#8217;re fairly difficult to acquire if it&#8217;s not your job. If you&#8217;re just doing this evening, weekend, it&#8217;s a bit of a hobby, I still think those things are really difficult to acquire and they&#8217;re not slowing down. You know, in the year 2025 when we&#8217;re recording this, CSS is really on a clip, it&#8217;s really modifying itself quickly. All these different sort of layout systems, flex, grid to learn and what have you.</p>



<p>So I think the promise of the page builders in WordPress is probably why it&#8217;s as successful as it is. If you rewind the clock 10 years, when they just started to come about, you mentioned Divi and there was Beaver Builder and, oh, all sorts of other ones. I would imagine that if you could chart the growth of WordPress, it would&#8217;ve been the novice user wanting a sort of what you see as what you get, point, click, drag, save solution that meant that WordPress grew. And it sounds like you fitted into that niche quite nicely.</p>



<p>[00:19:56] <strong>Anthony Jackson:</strong> Yeah, I wanted to know why. Why it wasn&#8217;t working. Why the block couldn&#8217;t move. I was very irritated by that because I had certain expectations for my logo to be correct. And what really got me into WordPress was the fact that it was drag and drop. And I love the word drag and drop, because if you don&#8217;t know how to code, well, drag and drop is the alternative, and it&#8217;s your best friend. But it&#8217;s not a true, genuine, drag and drop experience.</p>



<p>Because to me, drag and drop genuine experience means to put things where I want to put them. I don&#8217;t want to be limited by the block builder, you know, the blocks that you&#8217;re provided. I want to be able to move it, control it, customise it. Because at the end of the day, people buy into you and not your products and services. But at the same time, your website never gets built because you spend way too much time customising, Googling the 20 best page builders of 2025, and buying a whole bunch of stuff you never needed in the first place, right?</p>



<p>[00:20:45] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> So have you doubled down on your page builder of choice and your website building experience is based upon the UI, and becoming an expert and having the perfect muscle memory for doing things in that? Is that how you build your pages, and themes, and structures for web pages now?</p>



<p>[00:21:00] <strong>Anthony Jackson:</strong> So, ironically enough, Nathan, I&#8217;ve actually got away from doing WordPress. I transitioned into something different, which we&#8217;re going to get to here in a minute. I learned everything about WordPress. I wanted to learn. The only thing I didn&#8217;t learn was WooCommerce. I understand what it is, I just didn&#8217;t want to learn it. I didn&#8217;t have a need for, my business didn&#8217;t sell digital products.</p>



<p>I got out of it because it just became frustrating because I just couldn&#8217;t do what I wanted to do, and I didn&#8217;t have the budget to pay someone to fix it. I knew if I did, I would probably just cancel anyways because I wanted it to look even better. So I just stopped because I didn&#8217;t want to do it. I discovered that I wanted to learn how to actually deploy WordPress for myself instead of using a hosting provider because that&#8217;s the easy way.</p>



<p>So one day I was Googling and I came across the word Linux. I was like, Linux, okay, that sounds like a fun rabbit hole. Let&#8217;s check it out. I discovered my first cloud computing company, which was Linode. I called them up and, you know, I got to be honest with you, I wasn&#8217;t super impressed with them, because the one thing that I realised quickly is that there&#8217;s no support at all. It is all community driven. If you think about WordPress, the open source, there&#8217;s no support. It&#8217;s all just learning community based forums, podcast episodes, wherever you can get content. Thank God WordPress, the audience is so big that you can get help. But to this day, there&#8217;s still things that I still want to know the answers to about WordPress, but I just can&#8217;t find anymore.</p>



<p>But I discovered Linux and I had a very, very difficult time of spinning up a server. I struggled so badly with the command line, so badly. And then I discovered that Linode had one click apps and one of them was WordPress. I was like, here we go again. I installed WordPress. I grew a little bit of a fascination with trying to find my credentials inside the terminal, realised quickly that shared hosting was not the only option to deploy WordPress.</p>



<p>My biggest problem with the server stuff was there was no support. I struggled very badly. Everything I Googled said, copy this, copy that. I&#8217;d copy and paste, I wouldn&#8217;t get the result. I was throwing things around, spinning up servers left and right, getting so frustrated. I&#8217;m like, what do I need to do?</p>



<p>So I ended up buying a course on Udemy, and went through this very, very great course for absolute beginners and discovered quickly what I was doing wrong. Completely stopped the course and started learning again, because I&#8217;m not that type of person who takes the course. I find my fix, and then I go back to like tinkering with things. I spun up, I don&#8217;t know, probably 300 little VPSs trying to figure things out. Needless to say, I&#8217;m a master of installing WordPress with Linode now.</p>



<p>[00:23:24] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Have you got into Linux server admin, sort of sys admin as a way, well, that was just the fun that you were having at the time, and then discovered that, okay, WordPress can bolt on top of that. And so now the two things have combined and you are back to WordPress, or have you entirely stopped with WordPress?</p>



<p>[00:23:40] <strong>Anthony Jackson:</strong> I never got into the sys admin stuff, but the next journey for me was, I Googled Linux and I had WordPress. I hated the command line, Nathan. The commands, the black and white was so overwhelming. As it turns out now it&#8217;s like my best friend. I can&#8217;t live without it because it&#8217;s so much easier if you know what you&#8217;re doing.</p>



<p>But I discovered something called cPanel, and when I got into cPanel I was like, okay, this is cool. I got a GUI, I can look at something, and lo and behold, guess what I found first? Install WordPress. I&#8217;m like, it&#8217;s back again, right? Everywhere I turn, WordPress kept coming back.</p>



<p>So I learned how to install cPanel on my own server, trials galore, WordPress. Ended up getting super frustrated with cPanel, because cPanel is extremely technical, if you are not in a shared hosting environment where it&#8217;s managed. It&#8217;s extremely technical. They started giving me questions, I started asking for commands. I started taking notes of those commands, so when I broke something, I would know what to do.</p>



<p>And I learned cPanel pretty proficiently, but got overwhelmed with it just because the technical. There&#8217;s a difference between documentation and technical documentation. Documentation is, click here, do this. Technical documentation is, before you get started, make sure that cPanel&#8217;s installed properly on your server. It&#8217;s like, okay, first of all, what is cPanel and how do you install it properly? Is there such a thing?</p>



<p>Like it feels so overwhelming and you couldn&#8217;t contact Linode, you had no support. The only thing you had was cPanel. So I went through hundreds of cPanel trials trying to figure things out. Grew a fascination with the command line and installing cPanel. And I discovered pretty quickly that, even though I didn&#8217;t want to learn WordPress anymore, I wanted to provide hosting for WordPress.</p>



<p>I wanted my own hosting provider. I wanted to be the guy who said, you know what you need, WordPress hosting, I got you. But as it turns out, hosting WordPress on your own server is difficult because you don&#8217;t have that system admin background to fix things. Makes it extremely challenging and it, your confidence goes way, way, way down, because you cannot provide that quality of hosting that you want to provide.</p>



<p>So upon Googling more, I discovered something called WHMCS, Web Host Master Complete Solution. Loved this concept. This was a dark rabbit hole. I went down this rabbit hole, and discovered quickly that I would have to install it on my own server, which I lacked knowledge of. Biggest problem was the file manager, figuring out the file structure, how to navigate to the path, trying to figure all that out.</p>



<p>And I finally got that installed and I learned about WHMCS. And through some Googling and YouTube, I hooked up my first server and I click install and it provisioned an instance of WordPress inside of WHMCS. I saw a button that said, log into WordPress. And I was like, oh my God. There&#8217;s a button.</p>



<p>And I clicked this button and I was like, oh my God, it just launched WordPress. I was blown away, so I was like, let&#8217;s get a business going. So I started writing documentation and yeah, it wasn&#8217;t that easy.</p>



<p>[00:26:26] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Boy, I mean, you get the prize for commitment though. I mean, I don&#8217;t know if you&#8217;ve got just bucket loads of time on your hand, or if you are just the kind of person that, once you&#8217;ve set yourself a task, it&#8217;s going to annoy you until you finally cross that Rubicon. But you&#8217;ve got a lot stickability.</p>



<p>[00:26:42] <strong>Anthony Jackson:</strong> I&#8217;m a determined individual. I went through multiple attempts at WordPress hosting, but I discovered that I was going to need help. I was going to have to find a way to provide this because I didn&#8217;t have the system admin background. So I discovered reseller hosting. And this is kind of where things blossomed.</p>



<p>Reseller hosting was great, because they not only provided the WHMCS license free, they provided a cPanel license and I didn&#8217;t have to manage it. It was the perfect setup. I was like, oh my God, this is perfect. So I really started to dig into my business then. But then I discovered really quickly that without customers, this is going to be really difficult.</p>



<p>[00:27:14] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, that&#8217;s the crucial bit that you have to have somebody to resell it to.</p>



<p>[00:27:17] <strong>Anthony Jackson:</strong> So after three, four months of messing with tech and mastering the art of cPanel, WHM and WHMCS, I stopped because I didn&#8217;t have any customers. Why pay 40 bucks a month if you&#8217;re not making any money, right? Didn&#8217;t make sense. So I was like, well, I need to figure out a different way to provide hosting. I came across something in Linode called Bash. Bash scripting.</p>



<p>I did a little Googling, looked at some images, and I&#8217;m like, okay, it&#8217;s coded. I&#8217;m not a coder. How am I going to do this? And I went back and looked at cPanel, because I had installed it one day and I noticed that the word Bash was in their installation command. And I was like, what the hell is Bash? And what is it doing in this command?</p>



<p>So Google, Google, Google. I discovered some commands, curl, Wget in Linux, all the stuff, and realised that I could pull a file down from the internet and run it as Bash. I was like, this is wicked cool. And I wanted to be able to deploy WordPress, but I wanted to be able to provide it to somebody else so that I didn&#8217;t have to deal with the server side. I wanted to be able to give them a script and say, you can download this script, click a button, add your domain, make sure your DNS is set up and you&#8217;re golden. And I was like, this is cool.</p>



<p>But then I realised like, I need a way to deploy WordPress because I can&#8217;t use Linode because then I&#8217;m doing it. I don&#8217;t want to help them get to where they need to be because I don&#8217;t know how. So how do I offer WordPress hosting in a manner that they can do it in a session that they can understand? So what I ended up doing was I discovered Docker.</p>



<p>[00:28:35] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> You have been everywhere.</p>



<p>[00:28:36] <strong>Anthony Jackson:</strong> I discovered Docker, and I was like, okay, this is overwhelming, right? Docker Hub, command line. I installed my first WordPress image and I saw the welcome screen. So what we know as WordPress, when we log in, we just log in with our credentials and we&#8217;re good. This brought me to the actual installation screen of WordPress. Pick your language. And I was like, oh, this is where it really begins, right?</p>



<p>So when I discovered Docker, I found the first image and I launched my first instance of WordPress using Docker, and it was local. And I went to go do everything and it said, error, database not found. I was like, this isn&#8217;t good, because I knew that the database was the core, right?</p>



<p>So I learned in Docker how to set up a database with my SQL. And after some serious frustration around coding YAML files, I got with a guy on Fiverr and I said, listen, I said, I need you to make me a script.</p>



<p>I need a Docker install that can install WordPress, have a database, and also be able to get an SSL on the domain, because adding SSLs in Linux is a pain in the butt. I don&#8217;t know if you&#8217;ve ever been down this road. One of the biggest things about cPanel and the shared hosting is the automatic SSL feature is flipping amazing. It&#8217;s one of the things you&#8217;ll fall in love with, because your site has to be secure for multiple reasons.</p>



<p>But regardless, he ended up using something called Caddy server. Reverse proxies, all that stuff. He ended up just creating the script. And he goes, just run it. I&#8217;m like, how do I run it? I have no idea. He&#8217;s like, just make a file, do this. And I put the code in and all of a sudden I hit enter and this thing started running. It started updating packages, and servers, installing Docker, Docker Engine, Docker Compose, running and running and running and running. And I&#8217;m just watching it running. My eyes are just lighting up the whole time. I&#8217;m like, oh my God, what is doing?</p>



<p>[00:30:14] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> It&#8217;s like watching the Matrix or something, isn&#8217;t it?</p>



<p>[00:30:17] <strong>Anthony Jackson:</strong> It would pause, it would extract, it would unzip files. I thought it was broke. I restarted like seven times. And all of a sudden it stopped, Nathan, and said, your WordPress instance is ready, go here. And I was like, no way. No way. And I&#8217;ll be damned, man. I clicked the link and there it was on my own domain secure, and I was blown away.</p>



<p>I didn&#8217;t even log in because I knew it right then and there that I could deploy WordPress and everything would be fine, right? And so I saw this WordPress and I was like, oh my God, I just deployed WordPress in minutes, not hours, on my own server with nearly no technical knowledge.</p>



<p>[00:30:51] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> I don&#8217;t know, I think you&#8217;ve acquired quite a lot of technical knowledge on the way.</p>



<p>[00:30:55] <strong>Anthony Jackson:</strong> Well, thank God, right? Because running that script was extremely challenging, but I was just, you know that moment when you discover something and you&#8217;re clapping and you&#8217;re smiling and you&#8217;re putting your hands over the air? I was clapping away. That&#8217;s where my mind was at. And when I did that, that&#8217;s when the business really started, because I wanted to be able to offer WordPress hosting without having to worry about the sys admin stuff. So I figured if I just provided a script.</p>



<p>So now I have a script that&#8217;s made in Bash that you just copy and paste a command and the script runs and does what it needs to do. All you need to do is just add your A record for the DNS and your SSL and you&#8217;re good to go.</p>



<p>[00:31:28] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> So is that, dare I ask, is that where you&#8217;re at now? Or is there another sort of, I don&#8217;t know, you just sort of, quick, pivot left? Is there something else coming?</p>



<p>[00:31:36] <strong>Anthony Jackson:</strong> No, there&#8217;s more. So Bash is kind of where I stopped. I didn&#8217;t really learn Bash, but as you know there&#8217;s a lot of drama in the WordPress community, and it seems to shine on X. And I made a decision that it&#8217;s going to be really hard to market because of all the competition with WordPress. And I kind of stopped.</p>



<p>And so the business now, this is where I&#8217;m at, I&#8217;m creating Bash scripts for popular open source applications. Because if there&#8217;s one thing that I&#8217;ve learned through my journey with WordPress and learning servers and Linux, it&#8217;s that the open source community is so powerful. Your privacy, your focus, your respect, your content, your everything is so important. So I&#8217;m actually creating Bash scripts that automate the process of those popular open source applications like WordPress, Plausible Analytics, Nextcloud, all those popular ones.</p>



<p>I&#8217;m in the process of making scripts for all those, and it makes the process easy because when I first started deploying open source applications, my biggest challenge was the documentation. Trying to understand it, trying to read it, trying to make sense of it. And when I saw that WordPress script run, man, I was like, oh my God, I can make anything run, and now I&#8217;ve got five scripts.</p>



<p>[00:32:46] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> And so is that going to be the business in the future there? Where you come along and you, I don&#8217;t know, you want Moodle or something, or you want Joomla or WordPress or whatever it may be, and you&#8217;ve got a script which you basically just put it on your server, run it, find the path to it, run it, and you&#8217;re off to the races.</p>



<p>That&#8217;s an interesting business model and not one, well, I mean, obviously, that business model is encapsulated in many, many, many hosting companies and hosting solutions like cPanel and what have you, but yours is going to be just, buy the script, off me, run the script, and then you&#8217;re on your own.</p>



<p>[00:33:16] <strong>Anthony Jackson:</strong> Because the biggest issue that I&#8217;m finding with people, it&#8217;s not so much the command line, it&#8217;s tying the SSL into it. And a lot of people are hosting these open source applications locally, but there&#8217;s a problem with that. There&#8217;s a big problem. We talked about at the very beginning of this podcast episode, it&#8217;s not on the internet. It&#8217;s local to your computer, nobody can see it.</p>



<p>What Caddy does is creates that reverse proxy and puts it on your own domain so that the world can see it. It solves a big problem. Because Linux is so big, you not only have to learn the operating system. You not only have to learn the command line. You&#8217;ve got to learn the commands itself. You&#8217;ve got to have serious patience. You&#8217;ve got to be able to do a lot of things to get to where you need to be with Linux to be comfortable.</p>



<p>These scripts make it super easy. Literally, like you point your A record, you let it propagate, you press a button and it goes. And I went as so far to this, this is really cool, I had someone else create a script that secures your server as well. So when you run this WordPress script it disables root login, it does all the security best practices, uses public key authentication, the whole nine yards. Then it installs Docker, Docker Compose, Docker Engine, runs the file, runs Caddy, installs WordPress, and you have a secure server set up in 10 minutes with your own WordPress instance on the internet ready to go.</p>



<p>[00:34:27] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, I remember the famous five minute install for WordPress, but this is more like five minute install for all the stack. Click the button, go off, make yourself a coffee, and by the time you&#8217;ve come back everything is done. That&#8217;s so interesting.</p>



<p>[00:34:40] <strong>Anthony Jackson:</strong> There&#8217;s a couple of manual processes because of the way the script is built. But if you have a technical background, you&#8217;re good to go. And one of the reasons I did this, Nathan, was because I realised there was no support as we discussed, right? Well, I didn&#8217;t know everything about Linux. There&#8217;s no way I could be a system admin, no way in hell.</p>



<p>So I wanted to make a way to where I could give it to someone and say, hey, here it is. Heads up, we&#8217;re not responsible. This is your server. You break it, you fix it. I&#8217;m here to give you the script, I&#8217;m here to troubleshoot why it&#8217;s not working and that&#8217;s it.</p>



<p>[00:35:10] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, you&#8217;re just the beginning. You are the first step on the journey, and then it&#8217;s hands off from your perspective, and then it&#8217;s over to you. I&#8217;ve got it.</p>



<p>[00:35:17] <strong>Anthony Jackson:</strong> The scripts are all one-time fees. So you own it, do whatever you want with it. Remodify it, I don&#8217;t care. Make it better, improve it.</p>



<p>[00:35:22] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Where do you sell them then? How has that as a business idea gone down? Have you managed to find customers for that?</p>



<p>[00:35:28] <strong>Anthony Jackson:</strong> I have not found customers yet. That&#8217;s part of the reason I&#8217;m on here, to help get exposure. I&#8217;m still trying to kind of validate the business idea. Anybody that knows anything about Bash scripts knows that they&#8217;re not sold. They&#8217;re free. I&#8217;ve put a lot of money into having these things created for me, so I want to get a little bit of return on them.</p>



<p>And they&#8217;re not, I mean, the WordPress one is 27. It&#8217;s nothing crazy. You can deploy WordPress as many times as you want, SSLs, et cetera. It&#8217;s a slow process. I&#8217;m very much, my business in a phase where I&#8217;m building my audience. I&#8217;m trying to find out who that audience is, what their pain points are, what their problems are. And things will probably progress from there. So right now my biggest challenge is just trying not to learn anything else because I&#8217;ve learnt so much.</p>



<p>[00:36:11] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, it would seem that your history is littered with, well, not dead ends, but kind of temporary dead ends where it leads you to the next thing, and it leads you to the next thing. But actually the thread running through your story that I&#8217;m picking up is that each time you drop a piece of technology and move on to another one, it&#8217;s kind of elevating you towards something a bit more difficult.</p>



<p>The technologies that we&#8217;re using at the beginning, the next one was a little bit more difficult to manage, and the next one, and the next one, and the next one. And it was that inexorable kind of rise to now where you are doing the full nine yards in this one script. That&#8217;s really interesting. What a fascinating story.</p>



<p>I tell you what, you have more patience than I have. And I don&#8217;t know how many times you&#8217;ve thrown things at walls, but I suspect if it was me, it would&#8217;ve been quite a few. When those moments of clarity that I don&#8217;t really know what&#8217;s going on here, but I&#8217;m going to persevere. Remarkable.</p>



<p>We kind of hit the sweet spot in terms of time. So we&#8217;ll sort of wrap it up. What a fascinating journey. I love that story. Tell me, Anthony, where would people find what it is that you are mentioning here, these Bash scripts? Where would we find those? And then another question, very much the same really is, where would we find you? Where do you hang out online, and where could people discover you?</p>



<p>[00:37:19] <strong>Anthony Jackson:</strong> So my primary home is x.com. I really like X. You can visit my bio, there is a link to the website. Please note the website is being updated from what it is to something else. I was going to do the whole WordPress thing, but things changed a little bit. So I&#8217;ll leave you a link, Nathan, with a link to the shop and you can take a look at the scripts and decide if you want to purchase one. If you do, just know that I truly appreciate your support. Running a small business is extremely challenging on a very tight budget.</p>



<p>I really feel that this is something that can help a lot of people get where they need to be because there&#8217;s a lot of digital scams in the world. And the one script that I love that I have is the Nextcloud script. And I love the fact that I can store my data securely and not have to worry about privacy and my data being sold. So if you&#8217;re looking for an alternative to keep your stuff safe, definitely a robust option.</p>



<p>So I&#8217;ll send you a link, Nathan, to the scripts. I&#8217;m still in the middle of updating links and things like that. I&#8217;m just excited to finally have it off the ground and finally have a business after learning nine different technologies in a matter of two years.</p>



<p>[00:38:17] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> It sounds like a lot. So what I&#8217;ll say is, when Anthony sends me the link, I will embed it into the show notes. So if you head to wptavern.com/podcast, if you search for Anthony Jackson, then you&#8217;ll be able to find that episode and I will make sure that all of the links that he sends me finally end up on the show notes over there.</p>



<p>What a fantastic and interesting story. Anthony Jackson, I really hope that your endeavor, all of that hard work pays off. Good luck for the future. Thanks for joining me on the podcast today.</p>



<p>[00:38:46] <strong>Anthony Jackson:</strong> It was great to meet you, Nathan. Thank you everyone for listening. I hope you enjoyed this story. I hope that it inspires somebody. Technology is an amazing thing. Remember, never fear it, always, always embrace it. It can take you places you&#8217;ve never imagined.</p>
</div>



<p>On the podcast today we have <a href="https://x.com/wphasslefree">Anthony Jackson</a>.</p>



<p>Anthony is a true technophile whose journey has been shaped by a constant pursuit of understanding new technologies. From a young age, Anthony&#8217;s curiosity about technology laid the foundation for a lifetime of exploration. Starting from modest beginnings in computer repair, he steadily transitioned into the world of WordPress, and the complexities of server management.</p>



<p>This episode really is a story, the story of trying new things, being creative and always following curiosity, wherever it may lead.</p>



<p>Anthony talks about his early experiences, describing the moment computers first sparked his interest, and the subsequent path he charted in the technology space. Despite hurdles and frustrations, particularly with initial web development and WordPress hosting, his story is a testament to determination and resilience. As you’ll hear Anthony learned the ropes of many technologies, from grappling with CSS for website customisation, to exploring cloud computing and the command line in Linux.</p>



<p>His journey took a big turn when he discovered automated Bash scripts that facilitate the deployment of open-source applications like WordPress. This is what Anthony is doing right now, but you’re going to hear many stories of different pathways that led to this situation.</p>



<p>Throughout the episode, Anthony sheds light on his philosophy of embracing technology. He speaks about the numerous technologies he&#8217;s explored, the trials he faced along the way, and the value of cultivating his technical skills. With his Bash scripts ready to streamline server setups and deployments, Anthony envisions a future where technology is not just a tool, but a powerful ally for businesses and personal projects alike.</p>



<p>If you’re keen to hear some inspirational stories about overcoming tech challenges, resilience and learning, this episode is for you.</p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading">Useful links</h2>



<p><a href="https://wphasslefree.com/">Anthony&#8217;s website</a></p>



<p><a href="https://www.elegantthemes.com/gallery/divi/">Divi</a></p>



<p><a href="https://www.wpbeaverbuilder.com/">Beaver Builder</a></p>



<p><a href="https://elementor.com/">Elementor</a></p>



<p><a href="https://www.cpanel.net/">cPanel</a></p>



<p><a href="https://www.linode.com/">Linode</a></p>



<p><a href="https://www.whmcs.com/">WHMCS</a></p>



<p><a href="https://www.docker.com/">Docker</a></p>



<p><a href="https://hub.docker.com/">Docker Hub</a></p>



<p><a href="https://yaml.org/">YAML</a></p>



<p><a href="https://caddyserver.com/">Caddy Server</a></p>



<p><a href="https://plausible.io/">Plausible Analytics</a></p>



<p><a href="https://nextcloud.com/">Nextcloud</a></p>";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Wed, 05 Feb 2025 15:00:00 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:14:"Nathan Wrigley";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:48;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:13:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:76:"Gutenberg Times: Getting ready for WordCamp Asia 2025 in Manila, Philippines";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:35:"https://gutenbergtimes.com/?p=37593";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:86:"https://gutenbergtimes.com/getting-ready-for-wordcamp-asia-2025-in-manila-philippines/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:15919:"<p>Promoted as the <em>premier open-source summit of Asia</em>, <a href="https://asia.wordcamp.org/2025/">WordCamp Asia 2025</a> will take place from February 20 to 22nd, 2025 in the great capital of the Philippines, Manila. The organizing team has published a ton of information over the last four months. If you, like me, are more a just-in-time preparer it might be overwhelming to get through all the posts and see the forest for the trees.</p>



<p>First things first: If you haven&#8217;t purchased your ticket, it&#8217;s high time. You need to <a href="https://login.wordpress.org/register?locale=en_US&redirect_to=https%3A%2F%2Flogin.wordpress.org%2F%3Ffrom%3Dasia.wordcamp.org%26redirect_to%3Dhttps%253A%252F%252Fasia.wordcamp.org%252F2025%252Flp%252F%26locale%3Den_US">register for a WordPress.org account</a> and login, before you can buy a ticket.</p>



<div class="wp-block-buttons is-layout-flex wp-block-buttons-is-layout-flex">
<div class="wp-block-button has-custom-width wp-block-button__width-50"><a class="wp-block-button__link wp-element-button" href="https://asia.wordcamp.org/2025/tickets/">Get your ticket now! </a></div>
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<p>The <em>WordCamp Asia 2025</em> is not one event but three: <a href="https://asia.wordcamp.org/2025/contributor-day/">Contributor Day</a>, a<a href="https://asia.wordcamp.org/2025/schedule/"> conference with talks, and workshops</a>, and <a href="https://asia.wordcamp.org/2025/youthcamp/">YouthCamp</a>, with a schedule for kids 8 &#8211; 17 years old. It will happen at the Philippines International Convention Center (PICC). That&#8217;s also where the <strong>After Party </strong>will take place on Saturday night that concludes this marvelous event. </p>



<p>I like to get at least a few days of sightseeing in before I enter the convention center for all the fantastic WordCamp activities. The two posts from the local organizing team about <a href="https://asia.wordcamp.org/2025/ultimate-guide-philippine-culture-travel-etiquette-phrases/"><strong>Philippine Culture</strong></a> and <a href="https://asia.wordcamp.org/2025/guide-to-filipino-food/"><strong>Filipino Food</strong></a> gave me a great insight into what I can expect and how I can blend in. Or at least don&#8217;t make a fool out of myself and others. <a href="https://bsky.app/profile/bph.social">I&#8217;ll share photos on Bluesky</a>.</p>



<div class="wp-block-group has-light-background-background-color has-background"><div class="wp-block-group__inner-container is-layout-constrained wp-block-group-is-layout-constrained">
<p>Hey friends! 🌴✨ Get ready for an epic adventure at&nbsp;<strong>WordCamp Asia 2025</strong>&nbsp;in vibrant Manila!</p>



<p>I’ll be diving deep into the WordPress universe – hanging out at Contributor Day (February 20th) and rocking both conference days (February 21-22nd). Want to connect? I’m totally open to grabbing&nbsp;<strong>coffee, lunch, or catching up</strong>&nbsp;between sessions at the Philippine International Convention Center.</p>



<p><a href="https://bit.ly/bph-wcasia">Check out my public calendar</a>&nbsp;and snag a slot – let’s turn this tech gathering into an unforgettable networking experience! Can’t wait to swap stories, share insights, and soak up the incredible WordPress community energy in the Philippines. Who’s in? 🚀🇵🇭 #WordCampAsia2025</p>
</div></div>



<p>It&#8217;s not all about grinding away! Alongside the <strong><a href="https://asia.wordcamp.org/2025/after-party/">After Party</a></strong>, sponsors have got some cool <a href="https://asia.wordcamp.org/2025/side-events/"><strong>Side events</strong></a> lined up. Check out the list to see how you can join others for a fun run, a chill sunset hangout, Google&#8217;s Site Kit plugin workshop, or Omnisend&#8217;s agency meetup.</p>



<p>Just today, WooCommerce announced its <a href="https://www.eventbrite.com/e/woo-community-meetup-wcasia-2025-registration-1226560478409?aff=oddtdtcreator" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener"><strong>Woo Community Meetup @ WCAsia 2025</strong></a>. </p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading">Contributor Day</h2>



<img width="652" height="434" src="https://i0.wp.com/gutenbergtimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/02/Contributor-Day-WordCamp-Asia-2024.jpg?resize=652%2C434&ssl=1" alt="Contributor Day at WordCamp Asia" class="wp-image-37621" />NATIONAL THEKTE PIRAUR



<p><a href="https://asia.wordcamp.org/2025/contributor-day/"><strong>Contributor Day</strong></a> is always such a fun kickoff for me at a regional WordCamp. I finally get to hang out with the folks I&#8217;ve been teaming up with on Slack and GitHub for years, and now we can actually chill face-to-face. Some of them are old pals, while others are fresh faces who are already making waves in the open-source scene. Plus, it’s a lot easier to catch up with friends before we’re all swamped by 2,000 more people flooding into the conference center—otherwise, it’s just a nod, a smile, and a quick wave as we pass by each other!</p>



<p>Make sure you check out the chance to connect with a <a href="https://asia.wordcamp.org/2025/human-library-books/"><strong>Book in the Human Library</strong></a>! This awesome event lets you chat face-to-face with “<strong>Human Books</strong>,” folks who have some pretty amazing stories, unique viewpoints, and cool skills to share. You can ask me anything about Site Editor, Playground, Block development and contributing. My time slot is from 10:30 am to noon (12).</p>



<p>If you have a hard time selecting one of the 20 team tables, check out our&nbsp;<a href="https://make.wordpress.org/contribute/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener"><strong>Contributor Wizard</strong></a>&nbsp;. It is a step-by-step wizard to help you decide which team might be a good fit for you!&nbsp;</p>



<p>On Contributor Day, you will find me at the <strong>Test Team table</strong>, and I will enjoy working with the table leads <strong>Krupa Nanda</strong> and <strong>Olga Gleckler</strong>.</p>



<p class="has-accent-color has-light-background-background-color has-text-color has-background has-link-color wp-elements-f1b325b7cd203bbfaf0660781c26212b">🚨 <strong><em>Note:</em></strong><em> Appropriate attire is required for entry to PICC. Guests wearing shorts, undershirts (sando),or slippers/flip-flops will not be allowed to enter. PICC reserves the right to refuse entry to any person who is not appropriately </em>dressed.</p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading">Selected talks from the presentation schedule</h2>



<p>The WordPress community totally crushed it with over 250 proposals for talks and workshops! We’ve got three tracks lined up, and if you can’t swing by, no worries—everything will be livestreamed on YouTube. Since everyone’s got their own interests, it’s tough to pick just a few talks to mention in one go, so I&#8217;m sticking with my own favorites. All in all, the program team has put together a <a href="https://asia.wordcamp.org/2025/schedule/">fabulous schedule</a> featuring <a href="https://asia.wordcamp.org/2025/speakers/">awesome speakers</a> and cool topics. </p>



<h3 class="wp-block-heading">Friday, February 21, 2025</h3>



<p><strong>Matias Ventura</strong> kicks off the talks with his <a href="https://asia.wordcamp.org/2025/session/keynote/"><strong>Keynote about the future of WordPress and Gutenberg.</strong></a>Ventura has been the lead architect of the Gutenberg project.  <em>TIL<a href="https://gutenbergtimes.com/feed/#79eea268-d46c-461a-8637-58e2a4c62d19">1</a> that Ventura was one of the co-designers of the <a href="https://wordpress.org/themes/twentyeleven/">Twenty Eleven default theme</a>.</em></p>



<p>The rest for Friday morning I will spend at <a href="https://asia.wordcamp.org/2025/session/the-block-developer-cookbook-wc-asia-2025-edition/"><strong>Ryan Welcher&#8217;s Workshop: The Block Developer Cookbook</strong></a>. Welcher collected a few more real life examples on how to tackle topics like block transforms, adding editorial notes, creating a custom format and more. This year, I hope the keynote won&#8217;t go over, so everyone interested in the workshop has the opportunity to start it at the beginning.</p>



<p><strong>Christy Nyiri</strong>, design lead at Special Project&#8217;s at Automattic, talk is next on my list. <a href="https://asia.wordcamp.org/2025/session/redefining-wordpress-design-innovating-block-themes-on-automattics-special-projects-team/"><strong>Redefining WordPress Design: Innovating Block Themes</strong></a>. Nyiri will showcase front and back end of a range of websites, highlighting how the team uses the latest WordPress feature to push the boundaries of block theme design. </p>



<p>On the re-run, I will watch <strong>Abhishek Rijal</strong>&#8216;s lightning talk on <a href="https://asia.wordcamp.org/2025/session/getting-started-with-wp-interactivity-api/"><strong>Getting started with the Interactivity API.</strong></a> The senior software developer from Awesome Motive, explores the new possibilities this API brings to your Gutenberg blocks. I heard from quite a few developers who have a hard time finding a use case for the new API. </p>



<a href="https://asia.wordcamp.org/2025/session/wordpress-speed-build-challenge/"><img width="652" height="368" src="https://i0.wp.com/gutenbergtimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/02/Speed-build-challenge-WordCamp-Asia-2025.jpg?resize=652%2C368&ssl=1" alt="" class="wp-image-37631" /></a>



<p>The <a href="https://asia.wordcamp.org/2025/session/wordpress-speed-build-challenge/"><strong>WordPress Speed Build Challenge</strong></a> between <strong>Nick Diego </strong>and <strong>Jessica Lyschik,</strong> hosted by <strong>Jamie Marsland</strong>, starts us into the afternoon of the first day. If you are in Manila, I highly recommend being in the room for this spectacle! <a href="https://asia.wordcamp.org/2025/open-your-possibilities-by-learning-from-the-experts-wordpress-speed-build/">See also the article in the news</a> </p>



<div class="wp-block-group"><div class="wp-block-group__inner-container is-layout-constrained wp-block-group-is-layout-constrained"><div class="wp-block-image">
<img width="652" height="652" src="https://i0.wp.com/gutenbergtimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/02/Do-the-woo-icon.jpg?resize=652%2C652&ssl=1" alt="" class="wp-image-37630" /></div>


<p class="has-light-background-background-color has-background">I’m wrapping up my first day by hanging out with <strong>BobWP</strong> and some other cool hosts from the <strong><a href="https://dothewoo.io/">Do The Woo Network</a></strong> at their sponsor booth. I’d totally love to see you there between 2 and 3 pm. Swing by and say hi! Can’t wait to meet you!</p>
</div></div>



<p>The rest of the afternoon, I’m planning to wander around the <a href="https://asia.wordcamp.org/2025/sponsors/">Sponsor hall</a> and chat with everyone at the booths. I’m truly interested to see which AI tools have popped up in the WordPress scene and what cool new products the plugin developers have come up with.</p>



<img width="652" height="435" src="https://i0.wp.com/gutenbergtimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/02/Sponsor-hall-2024.jpg?resize=652%2C435&ssl=1" alt="Sponsor hall WordCamp Asia " class="wp-image-37629" />Photo by Ryonosuke Kaneko



<h3 class="wp-block-heading">Solutions Spotlight</h3>



<p>Another kind of presentation is listed under <a href="https://asia.wordcamp.org/2025/solutions-spotlight/"><strong>Solutions Spotlight</strong></a>;  short presentation from selected sponsors. Here is the schedule as of today. It might fill up more as we get closer to the event. </p>



<img width="652" height="236" src="https://i0.wp.com/gutenbergtimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/02/Screenshot-2025-02-05-at-13.55.41.png?resize=652%2C236&ssl=1" alt="" class="wp-image-37620" />



<h3 class="wp-block-heading">Saturday, February 22, 2025</h3>



<p>After breakfast, I&#8217;m kicking off my Saturday with <strong>Riad Benguella</strong>&#8216;s talk on the <a href="https://asia.wordcamp.org/2025/session/dataviews-and-dataforms-the-future-of-structured-content-in-wordpress/"><strong>new DataViews and DataForms and the future of structured content in WordPress</strong></a>. Benguella&#8217;s gonna share the story of how these two cool APIs came to be and give us the scoop on how they’ll fit into the wp-admin redesign project, plus what we can look forward to down the line.</p>



<p><strong>Autumn Fjeld and Candy Tsai</strong> are going to take the audience on a fun ride into <strong><a href="https://asia.wordcamp.org/2025/session/content-modeling-custom-post-types-and-custom-fields-in-the-block-editor/">Content Modeling, Custom Post Types, and Custom Fields.</a></strong> Both of them have been playing around with block bindings and patterns. They’re aiming for a totally Editor-based way to manage custom data, and they even thought about creating a “take it to go” data model plugin. I mean, who else is wondering: is there life after the Advanced Custom Fields plugin?</p>



<p>Alongside the Data Model talk, <strong>Isotta Peira</strong> and <strong>Hari Shanker</strong> will chat about <a href="https://asia.wordcamp.org/2025/session/wordpress-contributions-building-a-transparent-system-for-a-stronger-community/"><strong>WordPress Contributions: Building a Transparent System for a Stronger Community</strong></a>. It’s a topic I really care about, so I might just head over there instead and catch the other talk later on YouTube.</p>



<p>After the lunch break I will get ready for my presentation to <a href="https://asia.wordcamp.org/2025/session/create-a-demo-with-playground/"><strong>Create a demo with Playground</strong></a>. I chatted the other day with <strong>Roger Williams</strong> of Kinsta about the talk. </p>







<p>The last speaker slot goes to <strong>Matt Mullenweg</strong> who might again hold an AMA. So prepare your questions. </p>



<div class="wp-block-cover alignwide is-light has-parallax is-repeated"><div class="wp-block-cover__image-background wp-image-37639 size-large has-parallax is-repeated"></div><span class="wp-block-cover__background has-background-dim"></span><div class="wp-block-cover__inner-container is-layout-constrained wp-block-cover-is-layout-constrained">
<p class="has-text-align-center has-large-font-size"></p>



<div class="wp-block-group"><div class="wp-block-group__inner-container is-layout-constrained wp-block-group-is-layout-constrained">
<img width="652" height="490" src="https://i0.wp.com/gutenbergtimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/02/Matt-Mullenweg-WordCamp-Asia-2024.jpg?resize=652%2C490&ssl=1" alt="Matt Mullenweg at WordCamp Asia" class="wp-image-37634" />Photo by chiharu nagatomi
</div></div>
</div></div>



<p>The <strong><a href="https://asia.wordcamp.org/2025/after-party/">After Party</a></strong> will be a great place to unwind from three days of the WordCamp and to make more new friends at a true Filipino fiesta.</p>



<p>On Sunday, the folks from WordCamp Asia will head out all over the globe, bringing along all the good vibes, tons of community energy, fresh ideas, and new pals to team up with, united in the purpose of democratizing publishing with WordPress. As they take their experiences and inspiration back home, you can bet they&#8217;ll be sharing stories about the incredible sessions they attended, the amazing connections they made, and the innovative projects they’re excited to launch. Together, they’ll work on spreading knowledge and fostering a collaborative spirit, ensuring that the power of WordPress continues to thrive in communities everywhere.</p>



<img width="652" height="92" src="https://i0.wp.com/gutenbergtimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/02/horizontal-long-rgb.png?resize=652%2C92&ssl=1" alt="" class="wp-image-37639" />";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Wed, 05 Feb 2025 14:39:15 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:18:"Birgit Pauli-Haack";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:49;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:13:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:76:"Do The Woo Community: Woo Gets a Fresh New Look and a Bold Product Direction";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:43:"https://dothewoo.io/?post_type=blog&p=89642";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:80:"https://dothewoo.io/blog/woo-gets-a-fresh-new-look-and-a-bold-product-direction/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:180:"Woo has unveiled a new branding identity, featuring a modern logo and colors, enhancing its support for over 4 million online stores while prioritizing customization and ownership.";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Wed, 05 Feb 2025 09:26:18 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:5:"BobWP";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}s:4:"type";i:128;s:7:"headers";O:48:"WpOrg\Requests\Utility\CaseInsensitiveDictionary":1:{s:7:"*data";a:9:{s:6:"server";s:5:"nginx";s:4:"date";s:29:"Wed, 05 Mar 2025 23:19:31 GMT";s:12:"content-type";s:8:"text/xml";s:13:"last-modified";s:29:"Wed, 05 Mar 2025 23:00:31 GMT";s:4:"vary";s:15:"Accept-Encoding";s:15:"x-frame-options";s:10:"SAMEORIGIN";s:16:"content-encoding";s:4:"gzip";s:7:"alt-svc";s:19:"h3=":443"; ma=86400";s:4:"x-nc";s:9:"HIT ord 2";}}s:5:"build";i:1727747420;s:21:"cache_expiration_time";i:1741259972;s:23:"__cache_expiration_time";i:1741259972;}